• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I am just responding . . .
Hey Occy your still here!

I think that you might have missed out where people's heads have turned at a full 360 degrees and where orange smoke has appeared from their nostrils; of course we shouldn't leave out those who have crawled across church ceilings during our meetings - have I left anything out?

I am just responding to the way you speak of the Reformed. It isn't true that we become Charismatics/Arminians once we get into the Spirit.
Having spent decades within the Pentecostal and charismatic movements I have lost count of the number of people who have migrated from a Calvinist mindset to where we would both deem them to be Arminian.

I still encounter the odd long term charismatic who claims to be Calvinist; though as we also see on the various Christian forums, many of these same people will prefer to refer to themselves as being either four, three, two or amazingly even one point Calvinists - as I said earlier, it is simply a fact of life that tends to amuse many of us.
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest
The GOSPEL of YAHSHUA is the power of God for salvation to those WHO BELIEVE. Not those predestined...

But no one can believe but by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:3). And the reason for that is: you are dead in trespasses in sins and are enemies of God from birth. As long as such verses exist in the scripture, you can't steal from God the glory of man's salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
This is what the deal is. Read Romans 1:16 and that answers my question with a loud false.

The GOSPEL of YAHSHUA is the power of God for salvation to those WHO BELIEVE. Not those predestined...
Umm...does that mean that the Jews are possibly more 'predestined' to salvation than we Gentiles are?
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Now that's Arminianism at its finest!
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest
Now that's Arminianism at its finest!

Only if you add in the line-- "by the Holy Spirit a person is able, from some remote island of goodness in him that is not dead in sin, to submit to the coaxing of the Spirit." Or, in other words, when the will of man meets God half-way, to enable the reception of mercy.
 
Upvote 0
Feb 27, 2014
325
33
Texas
✟15,630.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Since you've shown that with your posts in this forum spending any significant amount of time responding is fruitless ( and since you're posting cessationism in this forum which will soon result in action from the admins), I'll just address your 3 points on John 12:32-33 as they are common Calvinist arguments.

1) You've made the assumption that those given by the Father are all who are drawn rather than as shown in the text, those who are given are the ones that come to Christ in contrast to those who resist the drawing. Given is not drawn, nor is drawn, given.

2) Again see 1), given and drawn is not the same thing.

3) Ah I was waiting for this as I knew you would stress the word men or people in v32 refers only to kinds not all meaning all. While it indeed does include all types, you've made the assumption because your theology requires it before you even open the bible that it's only some of those types, something which is not in the text. If Christ wanted to say only some, He would have. But your main problem even beyond all that is that the word men or people is not even in the text! It's a supplied word of the translators, the text just says all! If I said I was going to take all of the cookies out of the packet to put them in the cookie jar would you expect me to just put some of them in there? Of course not. Just as here there is no reason to believe that all means some. It's ridiculous. As for John 17:9, this is completely consistent with Arminian theology. Why would Christ pray for those whom He knows will never receive Him and be saved? Of course He prays for His own and not the heathen who reject Him.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
As Arminianism rejects that there is any inherit goodness within the unregenerate person then we know that it is only when they respond to God's Word through the leading of the Spirit than anyone can come to the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
This is what the deal is. Read Romans 1:16 and that answers my question with a loud false.

The GOSPEL of YAHSHUA is the power of God for salvation to those WHO BELIEVE. Not those predestined...

The predestination crowd, can say they were predestined to believe..Rib-it.

Justified by faith as per 8:30, a predestined act.


30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
An Arminian certainly acknowledges that God can purpose to establish a person or persons to a given role even centuries before they were born. This is the same as a CEO who designs a company leadership structure where he will not only purpose to have various roles established but where a good CEO will probably have a pretty good idea as to the type of person who will fill at least the more senior positions.

The same goes for the Father, he would have purposed to have two men fill the roles of the father of the Jews and where the other would be the father of the Arabs; but this does not mean that he knew everything about them or that he knew what they would say, think or even when they would blow their noses.

Here's where the Arminian position is well balanced in that it certainly recognises that God will purpose to have events or persons in play even centuries before they are needed; but we certainly acknowledge that God does not know every little fine detail about them as this would amount to being a logical impossibility. As I posed the question before, even though God would not know (or need to know) how to make a rock so big that he could not hold it up under his own strength, we fully realise that this does not detract from the attributes of God and the same goes for God not needing to know our every thought and action thousands of years ahead.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Don't forget, the hyper-Calvinist John Piper would also say that God also purposes individuals to eternal punishment where they have no opportunity to repent of their sin. Even though this is nothing less than heretical, it is still the logical outworking of Calvinism.
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest
1) You've made the assumption that those given by the Father are all who are drawn

Christ tells them "no man can come to me unless my Father draw Him." And then explains to the unbelievers the cause of their unbelief by saying "That is why I told you no man can come to me except it were given by my Father." The phrase "no man can come to me except it were given by my Father" is not anywhere in the text. Only "no man can come to me unless my Father draw them" exists there. Therefore, these phrases are interchangeable.

3) Ah I was waiting for this as I knew you would stress the word men or people in v32 refers only to kinds not all meaning all. While it indeed does include all types, you've made the assumption because your theology requires

You call it an "assumption," but I backed it up with textual evidence from the scripture, and can back up the use of such language by quoting the Talmud. Thus it is not an assumption, but a conclusion drawn from how Jews actually use their language. Thus my reading is entirely plausible-- in fact, required, because otherwise it contradicts other Biblical verses.

As for John 17:9, this is completely consistent with Arminian theology. Why would Christ pray for those whom He knows will never receive Him and be saved? Of course He prays for His own and not the heathen who reject Him.

I used that verse only to show that the scripture can use words like "the world," and not mean every individual in the world. But as to this point of yours, it does not say "the heathen who reject him," but those who are "given" by the Father to the Son out of the world, which is the same language as John 6. And there the "giving" by the Father is the cause of coming to Christ, and not anything else. Christ even explains to them that the fact he knew they were unbelievers is the reason why He told them "no man can come to me unless it is given by my Father." This is meaningless for Christ to tel them if the cause of their unbelief is their foreseen rejection.
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest
As Arminianism rejects that there is any inherit goodness within the unregenerate person then we know that it is only when they respond to God's Word through the leading of the Spirit than anyone can come to the Lord.

So what causes you to differ from the unbeliever who receives the same "leading" of the Spirit and does not come to the Lord?
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican

red above, actually the science community is seeing so much intricate order in the cosmos, and the connection even down to atoms, and galaxies.

God might very well have our hairs numbered.
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
So what causes you to differ from the unbeliever who receives the same "leading" of the Spirit and does not come to the Lord?

Look, Jesus longed to gather them as little chicks, but they would not come!
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest

It seems you are saying that God is not omniscient, which is a bizarre position, so I hesitate to take your meaning at first glance.

Regarding the "chosen to be heads of the Arabs" comment. I already showed that Esau represents the children of the flesh, and what that means. It is not one nation-- Not the Jews under the covenant of works-- not the Arabs-- but all those who are the children of wrath. Jacob, in his turn, represents the Christian, or all those who are true and spiritual members of God's Church, whatever the age.

Thus your position is not "balanced," but flawed, because it is not taught in the scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican

yes, Paul did say "we", like the rest of mankind, were objects of wrath. in Eph 2.
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest

You're calling Piper a Hyper-Calvinist? Something tells me you don't know what a Calvinist is.
 
Upvote 0
D

Doctor Octavius

Guest
yes, Paul did say "we", like the rest of mankind, were objects of wrath. in Eph 2.

Paul says we were "by nature the children of wrath," which refers to our birth, our depraved natures, our walking in the sinfulness of both flesh and mind, prior to the quickening of the Lord. We are not considered the Vessels of Wrath from eternity, but the sheep of God.

Look, Jesus longed to gather them as little chicks, but they would not come!

Christ in His human nature did-- but the Father from eternity had already proposed their damnation.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.