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SkyWriting

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Are you seriously suggesting that most creatures die from starvation?
Wrong.

After how silly the first statement was, I didn't expect it to be topped by a sillier statement immediately, but it has. You really think that? That all variations in traits are equally useful in the natural world?
Just quote me rather than change my words. But that would hurt your argument.

Speaking of that, do you even know why that statement is silly?
Doesn't matter what I know about what you think you know. What matters is what you can disprove, preferably using sources most people trust.

Maybe learn about what you are going to talk about before talking next time.
I'm comfortable with my current process. But thanks!

Your ideas seem contrary to research showing that the fewer the genomes, the more rapid the changes. Mass extinctions are said to be driving force for rapid evolution in earths history. Thanks for the suggestion of error correction data, though I couldn't find it in your article.
 
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SkyWriting

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Another poll found that 1 in 5 Americans believes that the Sun goes around the Earth.

Actually, that's a world wide result, not just Americans. And it really just reflects that our language and knowledge is based on actual experiences. We may all believe that space is curved, but few people can actually think that way or put it into words.

Please tell us how the TV and newspapers should describe sunup and sundown to people? And how should people talk to neighbors about sunup and sundown so that we all think correctly from now on.

If your not part of the solution,
then you're actually the problem.
 
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pgp_protector

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Well given you didn't give a solution, What does that mean?
 
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SkyWriting

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Well given you didn't give a solution, What does that mean?

That doesn't answer the question.
Those following the conversation know I don't see a problem with a flat earth model because it works the best for nearly 100% of the population.
 
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Papias

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Skywriting wrote:

The links on post #140 said that the 1 in 5 for the aliens thing was global, the 1 in 5 sun going around the earth was Americans. I can see that it's easy to get the two mixed up. As far as the "proper" terms, I make sure that my kids understand colloquialisms, so I'm doing my part.

First, some of the questions skywriting is avoiding:

Papias wrote:

That sounds like you agree that these verses describe a flat earth. Maybe we agree?
So by not disputing it, I can take it that you agree those verses describe a flat earth?

Similarly, you didn't respond to this:
So do you agree that there is a difference between an ellipsoid and an ovoid?

New items:



Starvation is common, as is predation. Whether or not it's "most" depends on the season and circumstances. However, I hope we agree that the vast majority of animals that are born/hatched die well before reaching old age, right? We agree on that?



Just quote me rather than change my words. But that would hurt your argument.

You said that "no particular trait is an advantage." I didn't change your words, in fact, I even quoted them (and again now). Do you seriously think that some traits are not advantageous over others?

Doesn't matter what I know about what you think you know. What matters is what you can disprove, preferably using sources most people trust.

I asked if you if you understood why the statement ""evolution makes no sense, I mean, how could elephants have survived the cambrian explosion when they are too big to hide in holes?"
"

was silly. By ducking the question (not that you'd ever duck questions), it makes it look as if you don't know.

Papias wrote:
Maybe learn about what you are going to talk about before talking next time.

I'm comfortable with my current process. But thanks!

That is .sig worthy!

Your ideas seem contrary to research showing that the fewer the genomes, the more rapid the changes.

First of all, those aren't my ideas, they are those of actual geneticists. Secondly, that is the current research. Thirdly, what you mean by "the fewer the genomes"? Are you familiar with what a genome is, as opposed to a gene?

Mass extinctions are said to be driving force for rapid evolution in earths history.

Because they open up niches, and greatly change natural selection.

Papias
 
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Papias

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Greg still seems to be avoiding the lettered questions. Greg, do you care to respond to them?

Greg wrote:


You can consider it anything you want. Philosophers, english teachers, biologists, and so on can see it isn't tautological. In fact, you can see that by the fact that you misstated it. A correct statement of it is:

An organism which fits its environment better is more likely to have a greater number of children that survive to reproduce. It's not tautological because it requires heritability and because it contains the indepdently measureable factor of surviveability.

The only problem with that is that testing in which random mutation is isolated shows that the fruit fly is always weaker than the the rest of the organisms and the changes you are expressing there do not occur (see Dobzhansky quote).

No, as myself and others here have pointed out many times, the experiments do not simulate millions of years of natural selection.

Natural selection is supposed to act as a preserver.

Natural selection removes the harmful mutations (so it doesn't matter if there are more of them, which there are), and propagates the useful ones. I hope that's more clear than your statement.




To claim that random mutations could not only make a theropod stronger but turn it into a bat is a disregard of scientific testing.

As I've pointed out, it only disregards your misunderstanding of a small slice of research.


Random mutations do not do these things.

You are aware, I hope, that many beneficial mutations (thousands, in fact) have been documented, right? Should that be put on the list?
We are able to simulate selection by removing the pressure, and the need for the preservation mechanism.


Obviously, that doesn't simulate natural selection. You might want to re-read the theropod story to better understand natural selection.

There is no predator chasing the theropod in the lab, and a random mutation which helps it escape a predator would be preserved without the pressure of the predator.

Why would it be preserved without natural selection?


The paper is understood. Further the results of 80 years of reserach is not going down the drain as the "Dobzhansky quote.


Obviously you don't understand it if you are still thinking the Dobzhansky quote is somehow against evolution.

Natural selection acts on random mutations

yay!! Something correct!!
I notice that you have yet again (4th time?) ignored most of the questions. You did read them right? Many of them are simply asking if you are aware of something. That's a pretty easy question, right?
Im not ignoring your questions. I already gave you my perspective on speciation.

Sure you are. You are not only ignoring them, but repeating misunderstandings, such as yours of speciation.

code, is do I have a more recent paper.

Great! Can we see it?



You asked for a nested Hierarchy of cars I told you that I was not going to spend time learning the every feature of vehicle in the world and listing them in a nested hierarchy for you. I gave you two examples.

You said you would do it, now you are saying you won't? There are many more features on any classification system than two. I hope you know that.

Nested Hierarchy is also a cop out and a trap.

How is that?



That section really makes me wonder again if you understand what a nested hierarchy is. Transitional forms do not violate nested hierarchies, or classification wouldn't be possible.

Papias
 
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Greg1234

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Greg still seems to be avoiding the lettered questions. Greg, do you care to respond to them?
Already given.
Apologetics Press - 15 Answers to John Rennie and Scientific American’s Nonsense—Argument #2



No, as myself and others here have pointed out many times, the experiments do not simulate millions of years of natural selection.
Natural selection is negated as a preserver through pressures like predation, but preservation is in fact simulated. As already pointed out to you, natural selection does not create organisms. All that is needed is for random mutations to be isolated and induced and the variety postulated which will be preserved through various environmental pressures will be observed. If Darwinists assert that various random mutations will turn a fruit fly into a grasshopper or any other creature through random mutation while selective pressure from changes will preserve a given change, like weather patterns, predators, etc, even without the predator random mutation should be able to produce the change. Even without the predator wiping out those without the mutation, random mutation should be able to produce those that have the mutation. If it were produced it would be documented. But all we see is that given by Dobzahnsky. Fruit flies become only weaker fruit flies.

Natural selection removes the harmful mutations (so it doesn't matter if there are more of them, which there are), and propagates the useful ones. I hope that's more clear than your statement.
What useful ones? Only weaker fruit flies were produced.

You are aware, I hope, that many beneficial mutations (thousands, in fact) have been documented, right? Should that be put on the list?
"As far as timing of natural genetic engineering is concerned, McClintock emphasized the importance of stress events she called "genome shocks" for activating the built-in systems of DNA rearrangement. Now that these systems have been investigated at the molecular level, we have many examples illustrating how natural genetic engineering can be kept latent during normal proliferation but specifically activated in response to particular signals (see 9, 10, 16 for specific references not given below). � In repair responses, we know that DNA damage triggers the activation of mutator polymerases and non-homologous end joining activities (34, 36). � In specialized DNA rearrangement systems, like the ones used in our immune cells to generate an enormous variety of coding sequences for antibodies and T-cell receptors, the necessary genetic engineering functions turn on in response to developmental controls.
� Similarly, a yeast retrotransposon undergoes transcription, reverse transcription and integration in response to mating pheromone.
� In bacteria, the phenomenon of "adaptive mutation" occurs when cells activate MGEs and mutator polymerases in response to long-term starvation signals (16, 47).
� A particularly important source of rapidly-activated natural genetic engineering called "hybrid dysgenesis" takes place when individuals mate with individuals from a distinct interbreeding group or species (7). Hybrid dysgenesis results in extraordinarily high rates of mutation and chromosome rearrangements caused by DNA transposons and LINE elements in fruit flies, DNA transposons in nematode worms, and retroviruses in mice and wallabies (48)."


These are some of the parameters within a which hundreds if not thousands of beneficial mutations have taken place. You compare that to the 80 years study on random mutations which reveals


"The clear-cut mutants of Drosophila, with which so much of the classical research in genetics were done, are almost without exception inferior to wild-type flies in viability, fertility, longevity."—*Theodosius Dobzhansky, Heredity and the Nature of Man (1964), p. 126."

Of course, by your reasoning and appeal to natural selection being able to produce the plethora of organisms here today, the fruit flies in the lab have escaped a major disaster which wiped out all the other fruit flies in the wild which means that the fruit flies which are deformed, dying from diseases, inferior in every aspect, are naturally selected, hence this is evidence for Darwinism.

You said you would do it, now you are saying you won't? There are many more features on any classification system than two. I hope you know that.
I said that I "could". Youve changed it to "would"

could

   /kʊd; unstressed kəd/ Show Spelled[koo d; unstressed kuh d] Show IPA
–verb 1. a pt. of can1 .


–auxiliary verb 2. (used to express possibility): I wonder who that could be at the door. That couldn't be true.

3. (used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.

would

2    /woʊld/ Show Spelled[wohld] Show IPA
–noun weld2 .






will

1    /wɪl/ Show Spelled [wil] Show IPA auxiliary verb and verb, present singular 1st person will, 2nd will or ( Archaic ) wilt, 3rd will, present plural will; past singular 1st person would, 2nd would or ( Archaic ) wouldst, 3rd would, past plural would; past participle ( Obsolete ) wold or would; imperative, infinitive, and pres. participle lacking.
–auxiliary verb 1. am (is, are, etc.) about or going to: I will be there tomorrow. She will see you at dinner.

2. am (is, are, etc.) disposed or willing to: People will do right.







That section really makes me wonder again if you understand what a nested hierarchy is. Transitional forms do not violate nested hierarchies, or classification wouldn't be possible.
Im taking examples from your own people.

"While it might seem that this arrangement is obvious and unavoidable, it is not. Taxonomic groups are defined by traits and it should be possible to mix traits from multiple defined groups. An example from classical mythology is the Pegasus, a creature with features defined as both mammal (produces milk like a horse) and bird (has feathers). Mammals and birds are both orders, so, if Pegasus existed, it would be a violation of the nested hierarchy, a creature that belonged to two separate groups. Likewise for satyrs (human torso, goats legs), jackalopes (rabbit body with an antelope head) and crocoducks (crocodile head, body of a duck). "

In other words, not finding a croco duck is evidence of Darwinism. Finding a crocoduck is evidence for Darwinism. Seeing that we are not finding crocoducks, nested hierarchy is now put into the limelight as the prime product for circulation. A creationist who would get into an argument to disprove nested hierarchy by providing a crocoduck, would then be proving Darwinism by providing evidence for supposed transitional fossils. But lets look at why cars cannot be used.

"For instance, motor vehicles do not show conservation of traits to single taxonomic groups, no matter how you choose to define your taxonomy. Whether a car has air-conditioning is completely independent of whether it has power-steering,"

There are many examples in living organisms where features do not depend on the other. Whether or not an organism has a digestive system is completely independent of whether it has wings.

"Life, however, shows a clear nested hierarchy, at least with regards to multicellular organisms. An animal that produces milk (Mammals), will also have hair, have four limbs, be endothermic (warmblooded) plus possess many other characteristics."

An animal that produces milk does not always have four legs. A crocodile has four legs but does not produce milk for example. Likewise you can always find similar features in a car. A car with a steering wheel may always have wheels for example. A car with a speedometer will always have an engine.
"Why should this be? Why do no other animals or plants produce milk? Why do no mammals have four limbs plus a pair of wings, like the Pegasus or angels? This fits easily with the idea of common descent, but is not what would be expected from special creation (although it isn't completely at odds with creation either, as the creator(s) could create life in any configuration imaginable)."

Precisely. But if you do find a mammal with wings of an eagle and the body of a horse, with four legs, this would be "transitional".
 
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SkyWriting

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All this proves is that participants of gallup polls are not very intelligent. Did you also know that about 70% of Americans cannot name the 3 branches of government or at least 3 members of the U.S. Supreme Court?

That's the way liberals like it to be.
 
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SkyWriting

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And that a wider poll found that about 1 in 5 people really, literally believe that space aliens live among us, disguised as humans? ...

Well duh. With all those kooks talking about life on other planets....I mean it was on NPR just two days ago. If your not going to squash the scientists harping about life on other planets, then you're going to get those results.
 
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gluadys

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Papias' suspicions were right. You don't actually understand what a nested hierarchy is. No, neither a crocoduck nor a Pegasus would be a transitional form because in a nested hierarchy you do not get transitional forms between separate nests. You only find transitions within a nest.

Animals with four legs (tetrapods) are a larger nest than mammals. Mammals are a nest within the nest of tetrapods. So you will find tetrapods (such as crocodiles) which do not produce milk for their young. But you will not find mammals which are not tetrapods (have four legs or evidence that their ancestors had four legs.) You will find transitions within the mammal nest from terrestrial mammals to marine mammals like whales, but you will not find transitions to a separate nest like birds---so no Pegasus.

You cannot classify vehicles in a nested hierarchy like this .
 
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Greg1234

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They would be presented as such. A duck is labeled as a bird. A crocodile a reptile. Darwinists assert that reptiles can give rise to birds. There is no "breach" in finding a crocoduck.
They are not dependent on each other. It was a two part quote dealing with both sections. Not all tetrapods are mammals i.e the crocodile example, and not all mammals are tetrapods, for example Dolphins and whales, Darwinist assertion of hippos to whales notwithstanding. You find the same thing with cars, and the section of the quote you snipped already addresses the similarities we find. Finding them, ie mammals lactate, does not imply Darwinism. You will not classify a whale as a fish based on the features that it has. You approach from the perspective of the mammalian features, but not the fundamental attributes that it shares with other fishes or the fact that there are fishes which share some attributes with mammals, like tuna, and its ability to regulate body temperature, a fundamental feature in being called a mammal.
You cannot classify vehicles in a nested hierarchy like this .
Actually, there are vehicles, within vehicles there are civilian vehicles, within civilian vehicles, there are civilian vehicles with engines, there are civilian vehicles with engines which are land based, aquatic and aerial. And this is still just a broad perspective, and just as in biological systems, you will find similarities, discrepancies and shared traits. Why is it that all cars seem to have four wheels, front lights, a steering wheel and a gear system. But not all cars have spoilers. Not all mammals have echolocation, or are bipedal. Though, this has nothing to do with Carwinism.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm not 100% in tune with your full message, but it starts off on track as far as I can figure.
 
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SkyWriting

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...Why is it that all cars seem to have four wheels, front lights, a steering wheel and a gear system. But not all cars have spoilers. Not all mammals have echolocation, or are bipedal. Though, this has nothing to do with Carwinism.

Carwinism is one of my favorite illustrations on origins.
 
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Sophophile

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They would be presented as such. A duck is labeled as a bird. A crocodile a reptile. Darwinists assert that reptiles can give rise to birds. There is no "breach" in finding a crocoduck.

That is incorrect.

Evolutionary theory does not assert that modern reptiles (crocodiles) gave rise to modern birds (ducks). Rather, it asserts that modern reptiles and birds had a common ancestor.


If the ability to regulate body temperature is something mammals share with fish, then it is clearly not a "fundamental feature" of mammals. In fact, thermoregulation occurs in many vertebrates and indeed in some plants.


Cars may be able to be arranged in a nested hierarchy if you pick just one trait. As soon as you take into account multiple traits, the nested hierarchy breaks down. In any case your examples are flawed: a Hummer is both military and civilian, and there are three-wheeled cars. It is trivially easy to find examples that break any nested hierarchy you care to present for vehicles or cars. That's why you were asked to "show your work" and present a nested hierarchy for cars, so other posters here could show you how easy it is to find examples that break it.

On the other hand, nobody has found exceptions to the nested hierarchy of life according evolutionary theory (with the possible exception of some bacteria, who can share genes without being related by descent). This is why evolution is regarded as a well-tested theory, because nobody has ever found an organism that falls outside the nested hierarchy predicted by the theory. If you did find a "crocoduck", that would break the hierarchy and disprove important elements of evolutionary theory.

Cheers
S.
 
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SkyWriting

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... No, neither a crocoduck nor a Pegasus would be a transitional form because in a nested hierarchy you do not get transitional forms between separate nests...

That's ridiculous. Every animal is a transitional form according to the theory. There is nothing but transitional forms.
 
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Greg1234

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That is incorrect.

Evolutionary theory does not assert that modern reptiles (crocodiles) gave rise to modern birds (ducks). Rather, it asserts that modern reptiles and birds had a common ancestor.
I see you inserted "modern". Today's modern is tomorrow's ancient. Given the fact that it is asserted that reptiles gave rise to birds, (sans "modern"), there is no "breach" in finding a crocoduck.
If the ability to regulate body temperature is something mammals share with fish, then it is clearly not a "fundamental feature" of mammals. In fact, thermoregulation occurs in many vertebrates and indeed in some plants.
It is fundamental. In fact it is one of the main features which separates warm blooded from cold blooded organisms.
Cars may be able to be arranged in a nested hierarchy if you pick just one trait. As soon as you take into account multiple traits, the nested hierarchy breaks down.
I dont have to get every single trait, to the last nut and bolt, to put cars in a nested hierarchy. If so , then the nested hierarchy breaks down given the fact that there are mammals without echolocation, there are mammals without paws, there are mammals without claws, there are those without hooves, without fingernails. There are discrepancies. As well as with vehicles. I did not get into the smaller nests.
In any case your examples are flawed: a Hummer is both military and civilian,
A military hummer, or a hummer made specifically for military use is different from a civilian hummer. It belongs in the nest vehicles, then in civilian hummers, then there are military hummers which will share the traits of those in the nest military vehicles.
and there are three-wheeled cars
Likewise there are aquatic mammals. Not all mammals are tetrapods, not all cars are "quadrupeds". But it is in fact the norm.
As it is for organisms.
On the other hand, nobody has found exceptions to the nested hierarchy of life according evolutionary theory (with the possible exception of some bacteria, who can share genes without being related by descent).
Nor do they have to. Organizing organisms according to their traits has nothing to do with Darwinism.
No it won't. It will be passed of as a transitional fossil. It doesnt have to have the head of a modern crocodile, or the body of a duck born in 2010. The point is there is the head of a reptile on the body of a bird.
 
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SkyWriting

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