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Good post. I highly regard and respect the Orthodox Church. For instance, their theory of what Catholics call purgatory is very well thought out. I don't really know if the Orthodox have a word for that other than it being a "re-education" process.
I also highly regard and respect the depth of theology of the Orthodox Church and its history. I had thought about converting myself at one time, but the legalism just seemed a stumbling block.
Example, the rules of iconography are just as much man-made rules as the Pharisees created. Rather than keeping it simple and to the point like saying that an icon is a lesson in picture, not to be idolized.
I stumble over any branch of Christianity when tradition becomes so entrenched and inflexible that it is treated like law. That is when tradition is a prison and a burden, and it smacks of Pharisaism, not Jesus.
I'm also highly offended by the Russian Orthodox Church persecuting Evangelicals. Christians are persecuted. Christians do not persecute.
This reminds me of something I read at blogspot.Roger, I'm puzzled by your naivité. All churches believe the Bible. The problem comes when they believe it says different things. For instance:
Baptists believe from the same Bible in the literal interpretation of the Greek word baptizo (immerse). Others say this is only half the truth, because even in the Bible baptizo is used in a non-literal sense, to wash.
Catholics believe from the same Bible that the keys to the kingdom were given to Peter and hence to Rome, and hence to the successors of the Roman bishops. Others believe from the same Bible that the keys to the kingdom are given to the spiritual successors of Peter, all true believers.
Orthodox Christians believe from the same Bible that they are the oldest Christian church, and continue the true faith.
Pentecostals believe from the same Bible that their tongues are the same tongues as in the Bible, and that those who do not make speaking in tongues a dogma of their faith are not up to date with what God is doing today.
Calvinists believe from the same Bible that specific people were designated for hell from the beginning. Arminians and Catholics believe from the same Bible that all humans will have a free choice in such matters.
I could go on. It's not as simple as your comment implied.
In the book of Philippians 3:2 Paul writes, "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision." Now the word concision here is usually taken as a reference to no more than those Jews at the time who were pressing the Gentile converts to be circumcised, as this is the general gist of the opening of the chapter.
Closer examination and reflection however will reveal the deeper underlying message in this statement. The archaic definition of the word Concise is "cut off," or "cut apart." This can easily be mistaken as a reference to circumcision alone at first glance, as circumcision is a "cutting off" so to say; but this is only the surface meaning. The deeper message here, in accordance with the message of unity is, "Beware of clicks and schisms from within! (dare I say denominations?)" Why? Because the proper usage of the word "cutting" in the context used here is a reference to a part being cut off from a main body. The TRUE church is the Body, as taught in 1 Corinthians 12:12. All things within the body are supposed to work together toward the One and same goal. All I have said thus far is supported by 1 Corinthians 12:25, "That there should be no schism in the body: but that the members should have the same care one for another."
When we view the church as a "body," we could very well compare each of us individually to "cells." Cells in groups make up tissue, tissue in groups make up organs, organs in groups make up systems. To be healthy, a body needs all systems to work properly, efficiently, and in accordance with one another in working toward and achieving the One and same goal. This cannot be achieved when there is schism, or division within the cells and members. This is cancer!
Cancer is characterized by uncontrolled division of cells and the ability of these cells to invade other tissues, either by direct growth into adjacent tissue through invasion or by implantation into distant sites. Cancer is a rouge group of cells or tissues which separates ("segregates") itself and forms its own entity within the larger system of the body. In a sense, cancer has its own separate identity like a parasite that infests a host organism. Cancer uses the body's life-force, or energy to survive in much the same manner that the various denominations, and groups draw from and use the veil of Christianity to gain the heart and minds of those that fall victim to them. Like any parasite, cancer is a drain upon the resources of the host organism.
Nothing to forgive! Your comment is a reasonable response and I appreciate your mature willingness to discuss the topic without merely storming off and calling me an idiot for expressing an honest opinion.
My reply is that I do not find icons themselves to be stupid. They are very useful as illustrations of biblical events. I find that limiting icons to only a certain style of art, and only a certain facial flat-faced, unnatural perspective, to be legalistic. I do not believe that such rules need to be made.
As far as the extreme example of icons of Martin Luther King dancing with Malcom X goes, I still don't believe we need a rule, just a decision by someone with some sense, that that is not appropriate. An extreme does not prove that a Pharisaic list of rules need to be made, only that common sense needs to prevail.
Many Orthodox believe they are the one true church because they are the oldest and that Protestants are apostate. Many Catholics believe they are the one true church because of Peter and that Protestants are apostate. Many Saturday sabbatarian churches believe they are the one true church and that Catholics and Protestants are the harlot and daughters of the harlot of Babylon. Many Pentecostal and Charistmatic churches believe they are spirit-filled because of tongues and other churches are deficient in Spirit and disobedient. Many Baptists believe that they are the ants pants because of tee totaling and immersion. On I could go...
However, most mainstream churches agree on the essentials of the faith such as: -
Those things that divide are sometimes labeled as dogmas, sometimes not. Some dogmas only became so within the past century, others are very old.
- the teachings of Jesus
- the teachings of his apostles
- the value of the Old Testament
- at least 5 of the first 7 Ecumenical Councils including
- the canonization of the New Testament
- the Nicene Creed (ex. filioque) and the Apostles' Creed
- the addition of Christmas around 300 or so
- the change of Easter (Christian Passover) from a date on the Hebrew calendar to a Good-Friday/Easter-Sunday celebration
Can the essentials above be improved upon? What can we do about the division? How can we foster unity? Do dogmas apart from the essentials above, often cause more problems than they are worth? Are they really necessary, or are they more important than unity?
I'm also highly offended by the Russian Orthodox Church persecuting Evangelicals.
To me, making rules about what kind of icons a church may display is exactly that, legalism. It constricts peoples' faith to a set of man-made rules about the "correct" artistic style.
Well there's where we disagree again. Christians are persecuted; they do not persecute. Who's business is it of yours if someone else proclaims Jesus. Jesus had no problem with it; but apparently you do.You mean by not allowing them to prostyletise the faithful when the Church is recovering from a century of persecution ? Unless they are there to aid the Orthodox Church under her direction, evangelicals have no business being in Russia or any other Orthodox country,
Would you allow any Bible to be used in your church ? The mormon bible, the JW bible ? Canons concerning iconography are there to protect the word of God from 'artistic' style that corrupts them. Icons are not 'art', any more than the Bible is literature subject to rewriting to suit the whims of the editor who interprets it.
It's not the country that is Orthodox, though, is it?Unless they are there to aid the Orthodox Church under her direction, evangelicals have no business being in Russia or any other Orthodox country
Yes, the Church of England did once persecute Catholic Christians, and then Catholics in their turn persecuted English Protestants. Thankfully, England has repented of the evil, and neither church persecutes the other. It seems that some of that persecution or terrorism still exists among certain Orthodox leaders in Russia. As much as I respect the theology of the Orthodox church, this is NOT orthopraxy. It is just plain evil behavior.It's not the country that is Orthodox, though, is it?
In England, the Church of England (i.e. Anglican) is the Established Church. We don't go around saying that no one else can proselytise in the UK, though. In fact, we have even allowed the existance of Russian Orthodox churches here!
Koey, there is plenty of evidence to show that missionaries going to Russia went not just with the intention of bringing Christ to the unchurched in Russia, but also of converting Orthodox christians to their own faith.It is just plain evil behavior.
Art is not religion. How one person depicts Jesus is not the church's business.
There you go from preaching to meddling. Or should I be more blunt? The church has no business raping the faith of its followers!
Regarding the Russian Orthodox Church and Protestants...I have heard many stories of the KGB coming in the middle of the night...The Protestants are trying to convert people who are already Christian. So what happens is that the EO Church in Russia classifies the Protestants as heretics and having a foreign religion, which is contrary to the Eastern Orthodoxy...So here is the problem, the Russian are Christian, what are the Protestants doing in Russian trying to convert Christians? ...Can you image a bunch of Russian Orthodox priest coming to the American belt states and telling the bible belt states that they need to convert to Christianity?
Are Protestant missionaries really being dragged out of bed at midnight and shot dead or being forced to work themselves to death in labour camps in Siberia1. The KGB persecuted Orthodox Christians, so why does the Russian Orthodox church employ KGB techniques to persecute others?
And I'm sure your church would just welcome hordes of Mormon missionaries in your area. That is how different these Protestants beliefs appear to that which they have received from their fathers.2. I don't care if Russian Orthodoxy is bigoted against other Christians, that gives them no right to persecute.
[bible]Luke 9:49-50[/bible]I believe you are reading an awful lot into this passage that isn't there.3. I presume Russian Orthodox listen to Jesus. Jesus told his disciples not to harm anyone who preaches his name, even if they are of a different group.
You are either ignorant or extremely naive. None of the Protestant missionary groups in Russia make any attempt to work with the Orthodox church established there. Did you read the document I linked to in my last post?4. I don't believe that ANY Orthodox priest would claim that ALL Russians are Christians at all. Most Christian churches prefer to convert those who are not Christians, rather than steal from other churches.
Yet another reason why Protestant christianity is so alien to the Orthodox. We are exhorted to hold fast to the teachings we were given, not change whenever we wanted.5. Protestants often change churches, and nobody persecutes them for it. That is not the business of the priests if someone chooses another church. The priests need to keep their noses out of peoples' private affairs.
[bible]Acts 20:28-31[/bible]Bottom line? Christians are persecuted; they do not persecute. If the Russian Orthodox Church is persecuting people, they need to repent and ask God for forgiveness of this gross sin.
Sorry, but I don't believe that the Russian Orthodox Church, as much as I respect its theology, is behaving in a Christ-like manner in this regard. It is behaving more like the wolf than the gentle shepherd.
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