• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Is God a fool?

There are 33,000 different denominations of Christianity, and 33,000 different interpretations of scripture. And every one of them thinks they have the keys to heaven.

Can a house divided against itself stand? And, if the "church" is the body of Christ, what is to be said for 33,000 different factions that mercilessly tear it apart?

These inconsistencies not only impede the Church's mission on earth, but leaves all walks of faithful - and by extension, God - vulnerable to derision and mockery.

Unification may be the most important tasks facing Christians. How can people be converted if they don't even know what to believe?

What can be done?
 

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

You've made a good argument against ecumenism. God might be insane if he allowed the Church to turn into thousands of competing factions, but I believe that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is there, though some might deride it as "just another denomination".
 
Upvote 0

Big Drew

Believer
Site Supporter
Nov 10, 2009
1,885
540
Alabama
✟97,461.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
There may be 33,000 denominations...but, when you look at the things that most of us disagree on, they are petty, to God, IMO...

Baptism...Infant or Believer
Communion...transubstantiation or symbolic or somewhere in between
Sanctification...entire or progressive
Does man play a part in his salvation?
Should we still follow the OT Law?
Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit still available today?
OSAS or can we fall away?

These, and maybe a few others, are the things that separate us...I'm not saying these things aren't important...but the most important thing is that one believes the Gospel, is born again, and doing their best to live a Christian life...all the rest of these will work out in the end. Having said that, I would feel uncomfortable in a church that believed the opposite of what I do on many of these issues, and I'm sure the rest of us here would as well...there aren't many of us that can be happy to agree to disagree...aside from that, there's been division since the beginning of the Church...I don't see that changing until we're seeing our Savior face to face...but, maybe that's just me...
 
Upvote 0

Dispy

Veteran
Jan 16, 2004
2,551
32
93
South Dakota
✟4,680.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Good Question. No, God is not a fool, man made denominations are foolish.

Galatians 1:8 "But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you then that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Who are these Galatians? They are barbarians? Guals who were saved under the preaching of "The Gospel of the Grace of God", but were being influenced by the Judaizers to keep the deed/works of the Law.

Doing the deeds/works of the Law were required during the preaching of "The Gospel of the Kingdom" that Jesus and the 12 preached. One only has to go back to Matt. 5, 6, and 7 to find out who would be the least or greatest in that kingdom (5:19). That kingdom is to be established in the earth, and Jesus taught His disciples to pray for that kingdom to come (cf. Matt. 6:10).

Those saved under the preaching of "The Gospel of the Grace of God", i.e. "...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom. 16:25). Believers saved under this preaching are a new creation , i.e. "the one new man" of Eph. 2:15. All believers saved under this program are known as: Members of the Church, the Body of Christ". We members of this Church have a heavenly home to look forward to (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1, Philippians 3:20). We have no place in the earthly kingdom that was promised to those of Israel.

Now to get to the reason we have so many denominations, "the doctrine of men," today.

We have two primary doctrines mentioned in our Bible. We have the doctrine of "Law, which were the instructions in righteousness to the children of Israel. It was given by God through Moses.

We have the doctrine of "Grace," for members of the Church, the Body of Christ." That is "the mystery" revealed to the Apostle Paul, by Jesus Christ, from His position in heaven.

Denominationalists today mix these two doctrines as "one and the same" Gospel. Mixing the doctrine of Law and Grace as one, only leads to confusion and denominationalism. Each denomination has its one formula (receipt) as to how to mix them. They then feed their congregations the "omlet" (scrambled egg doctrine) doctrine to their liking.

Eggs once scrambled cannot be unscrambled, but Paul gospel can unscramble a scrambled egg doctrine.

I do believe that Paul is speaking of "the gospel of the Kingdom", which is not to be preached today as we are not to look for a kingom here on earth. However, Paul says that "...all Scripture is for our learning" (cf. Rm. 15:4). By studying all the scriptures we have God eternal plan, and we will know everything that God wants us to know. All the Bible is TO US, but not FOR US.What is written to Israel is for Israel, and what is written to members of the Church, the Body of Christ is for believers today.

Hope this is helpfull.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

perrfekt

Newbie
Dec 25, 2010
171
4
NC
✟22,828.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married


in no way is God a fool. there are analogies like the ice cream analogy and whatnot. all of its ice cream, but different flavors.

the difference of denomination is when a group of believers generally take whats commonly a single scripture and base traditions off of it. the body of Christ has many different parts. and as humans, we do not understand the entirety of scripture as God does. some divisions within the church are valid and do seperate to an extent. in scripture baptism is blatantly referenced as an act of the believer, hence baptizing an infant is not what Christ commanded. however, a minor difference such as full immersion is simply not worth battling over.

the christian faith is predicated on a set of core doctrines required for the faith. salvation by grace alone, FOLLOWED by works as an outward sign and result of salvation, not a part of the salvation. also the nature of God as a spirit, triune in nature, which is important as that is who our faith is placed in. and finally the indwelling of the holy spirit, which brings us into relation to God. so long as the body of believers holds to these tenents, almost everything else doesn't matter. but to discount scripture because one does not like it, i do seriously question that in the salvation arena, but we are not the judges of mens souls.

as far as whether salvation is progressive or instant, both. not all men come to know God all at once. its like a seed, sometimes it takes time for understanding to grow for a man to realize his depravity and need for a savior. but there is always a definite point of conversion, where the miraculous happens when the Spirit of God for the first time indwells a man. it is simply a matter of the length of time for that to happen once a person begins to seek God. one man may hear the gospel and rejoice and accept what has been given him, another may have to experience a breaking point to understand and accept it.

at the very bottom of it, way down deep, the entire foundation of salvation is understanding and accepting one thing. That Jesus is the son of God, who bore the punishment of sin for us, and that believing in him, we may have eternal life. everything else you can rely upon the Holy Spirit to lead you to truth.
 
Upvote 0

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It just seems to me as though God would want his people to worship him in a prescribed matter, i.e., one church is the most legitimate above others.

I recently became serious about my faith. This was a difficult concept to wrestle with, and it makes Christians look bad.

Ultimately, I decided on the Catholic church, because it seems to me as though the ancient apostles had supreme authority over the church, and the Catholic Chruch is the inheritor of that authority.

I do not wish to bash someone who has different theology than I. At the end, faith and love count above all else. But the infighting amongst denominations causes me great distress. Catholics, in general, look down upon protestants, and my protestant friends think the catholic church is an amalgam of idolotrous heretics.
 
Upvote 0

Dispy

Veteran
Jan 16, 2004
2,551
32
93
South Dakota
✟4,680.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

It appears to me that you perfer "the doctrine of me" over what the Bible teaches.

Christ is the head of the Church, not a mortal man who dictates to ist subserviants.
 
Upvote 0

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm afraid I don't understand the "concept of me". And the bible, by the way, can say whatever you want it to.

It's interesting that there is scriptural support for both sides of most theological debates. People form the Bible around whatever is most comfortable to them.

That is why its seems logical that God would establish a definitive hierarchy for spiritual leadership. I don't think He would just dump the Bible on the unsuspecting masses and say "alright, it means whatever you want it to, I don't care."
 
Upvote 0

Hairy Tic

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2005
1,574
71
✟2,144.00
Faith
Catholic
## Absolutely The problem is much simplified if all the Protestant-type sects, from the Waldensians in 1170 onwards, are ignored.

This narrows the choice to all & only the bodies existing before then, & excludes all sects coming from them. The Nestorians would be in, the Skoptsy be out - as would the Waldensians, Moravian Brethren, Lutherans, Familists, Shakers, Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Baptists, Wesleyans, Fundamentalists, KJVOnly-ists, Oneness Pentecostals, & many many more (including all semi-Catholic sects)

If something modern or pre-16th-century can be called an heretical sect - why can't Lutheranism be called an heretical sect, & all other "mainsteam Christian Churches" born of the errors of Luther & his fellow-schismatics ? If only harsh words do for speaking the truth, then so be it - there is no good in polite insincerities: the difference between the JWs, the followers of Jim Jones, Moonies, Oneness Pentecostals, & Lutherans is one of degree only. In matters of faith, one heresy is as fatal as a hundred.

No doubt some Methodists are delightful people - so what ? So are many Muslims. If Muslims are not Christians for being nice, why should any other non-Catholic be regarded as Christian ?

The Church looks disunited only because sects & heresies have, for no good reason whatever, been regarded as Christian. This is an unprincipled, & so, an inconsistent & incoherent, piece of nonsense. The only Church in existence is that which is united to the Pope of Rome. Protestantism is a chaos of competing Babel-voices, one body rejecting as error what another insists is true. It was founded on a principle of rebellion against the authoritry of Christ, so it cannot possibly recover from this contradiction. Appealing to the sins of Catholics, no matter how enormous they may be, cannot cure the contradiction in which Protestantism came to birth.
 
Upvote 0

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
 
Upvote 0

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

Yes, it does. Those sacraments you've mentioned are just different ways to receive grace.

Be that as it may, I did not intend this to devolve into yet another Catholic/Protestant match off. We could go back and forth ad infinitum until the trumpets blare. All I can say is that there is a wide misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

barryrob

Junior Member
Mar 20, 2008
821
15
✟23,616.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Married

Follow what the Bible says and not any kind of traditions etc..
 
Upvote 0

barryrob

Junior Member
Mar 20, 2008
821
15
✟23,616.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Married

With regards to traditions Jesus Christ said:-

Matthew 15:6-9
...So YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’"

So when 'traditions' are not in The Bible such as the trinity, hellfire, immortal soul etc. then they are not from God but human ideas and thus need to be rejected as Godless!
 
Upvote 0

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
so is what i said incorrect?

The Church does place equal authority on apostolic succession and scripture, which lies at the center of most debates.

But I don't have a problem with that. This is my problem, the thing that keeps me up at nights:

Many denominations label homosexual activity sinful, where as others find it acceptable - going back the original Greek text and deciding that Paul was only condemning male shrine prostitutes, etc. Both claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit.

I'm Catholic, because their intrepretation of scripture - their understanding of God and grace - has been passed down since the time of the apostles, before there was any Holy Scripture to consult.
 
Upvote 0

perrfekt

Newbie
Dec 25, 2010
171
4
NC
✟22,828.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
you are assuming that the catholic church was indeed led by the apostles. constantine formed the catholic church, and with it incorporated current manners of worship to a sun god, and this all happened after the apostles were long dead.

the early church, if you read in acts, was at the begining a singular body of believers, but being as that was not Gods intent (go forth into all the world) different events and persecutions happened to drive the church far and wide. the church is not an institution, but the body of believers. there is no priest, only the high priest who is Jesus himself. all believers are saints. and there is not authoritative head of the church here on the earth, only the word of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

the debate of homosexual activity is nonsense. yes, the act of sex with a person of the same gender is a sin, and is referred to as debased. but sex outside of marriage is a sin, pornography (lust), hatred, lying, theft, dishonoring God, blaspheming, unforgiveness, etc. the point is not which on this list are you guilty of, because to violate just a single part of the law once, is to violate the entire law (scrip reference i cannot remember atm). what matters is the belief in Christ, and in his death and resurrection. after that, the spirit of God that now lives inside can guide you in truth.

those who fight against the scriptures blatantly because either they don't like or do not understand it, probably aren't christians in the first place. just somebody wanting a religion they like so long as they can pick and choose from the text, and those types of people tend to congregate together.
 
Upvote 0

barryrob

Junior Member
Mar 20, 2008
821
15
✟23,616.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Married
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
there is no priest, only the high priest who is Jesus himself. all believers are saints. and there is not authoritative head of the church here on the earth, only the word of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Hm.

"As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavour that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled. There is one Jesus Christ, than whom nothing is more excellent. Therefore run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one."

--St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, ~100 A.D.
 
Upvote 0

xeegh

Newbie
Dec 24, 2010
15
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
@ barryrob and perfeckt

You both fundamentaly misunderstood my point. I am not trying to say that homosexuality is not sinful. I am saying that two churches with mutally exclusive theology both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, an impossibility.

How do YOU know your church, theology, etc. is the favored? you say, "let your heart guide you." but your brothers are being led to different conclusions. How, then, can you have any faith in your own convictions?

It is useless to debate. All that I can say is, believers should be constantly questioning what they believe, and if it makes sense. Whoever thinks they have arrived at conclusive knowledge is dangerously deluded. Corn does not decide when it is just shoots from the soil that its growth is sufficient. It continues to grow, until the day it is harvested.
 
Upvote 0