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Right. But mainline Christianity thinks the Bible is a report written by humans of their experience with God. Hence how the people at the time, both those described in the Biblical accounts, and the authors, understood and described mental illness is not the way we would today.I think it is indeed deeply buried, and one reason is that in the New Testament they are represented as sentient beings. In Matthew 8:28-34, for example, they have a conversation with Jesus that ends with them striking a bargain with him.
Have you been hiding under a rock or something?
The biggest issue in the Anglican community over the past few years, it seems to me, is the fact that African Anglicans are so much more conservative than American ones. This has led to the creation of GAFCON, and threatened to split the Anglican Communion.
Likewise the current split in the United Methodist Church (UMC) is driven by the fact that African Methodists are more conservative than the average American Methodist.
If you're speaking of mainline Protestantism then I agree, being brought up ELCA myself. We really didn't have much of a supernatural worldview. But the Catholic and Orthodox churches are also mainline and they're still performing exorcisms 2,000 years later.Right. But mainline Christianity thinks the Bible is a report written by humans of their experience with God. Hence how the people at the time, both those described in the Biblical accounts, and the authors, understood and described mental illness is not the way we would today.
You can believe that most of the NT accounts involved mental illness but still think that there are very rarely cases that could be described as possession. I’m pretty sure that some Catholics would say that.If you're speaking of mainline Protestantism then I agree, being brought up ELCA myself. We really didn't have much of a supernatural worldview. But the Catholic and Orthodox churches are also mainline and they're still performing exorcisms 2,000 years later.
deration, because of being predominantly American. There's stuff out there that isn't well represented here. I'm thinking of conservative theologians in Britain who would count as liberal by American standards, so... are they conservative or liberal when compared to the forum? Probably liberal.
Well, I'm saying the opposite, actually. The average African Christian, for example, would be shocked at how liberal this forum is. And Africans make up a big slice of global Christianity: see this map.
To be clear, I'm using this one situation to illustrate where I believe the demonic happens and where it doesn't. I'm sure there was involvement before this incident, especially with his father, but I felt like this example captures the line between the natural and the demonic that so often gets blurred.For the sake of discussion I accept that, at some point, demons involved themselves in this young man's life.
In setting out his story you've identified multiple points where things went wrong starting with his father's desertion. You've nominated a point just after the dream as the point where demonic interference starts.
There are a couple of obvious questions I have to ask:
On what basis did you determine that demonic interference started after the dream?
Why could it not have started at an earlier or later stage?
Based on what you've told me, the point where demons come into play appears arbitrary. I can't see anything in the story which explains how you determined that that particular point is the one where demonic activity begins. The idea of sowing discord could be equally applied at other points in the story. This goes to the issue of my third question:
How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?I appreciate that the point of the story is to help explain demonic modus operandi but it also raises the issue of discriminating between demonic interference and non-demonic normality.
OB
Thanks Topher.To be clear, I'm using this one situation to illustrate where I believe the demonic happens and where it doesn't. I'm sure there was involvement before this incident, especially with his father, but I felt like this example captures the line between the natural and the demonic that so often gets blurred.
My point is not that the demons were arbitrary. There were not. They were opportunistic. They used the situation to their advantage.
This example (using biblical terminology) is what I would call "bad fruit". Jesus said we could identify the false by the fruit. Experience has shown me that the demonic is often involved when bad fruit escalates to get bigger or worse. That's what happened here. This young man's poor behavior escalated greatly as a result of this situation (discord among the brethren).
If you've been following the thread you will have seen me question whether all claims of discernment are equal and suggest that factual evidence has a reasonable place in the discernment process.The discriminating between demonic interference and non-denomic normality is exactly what I was trying to highlight (my belief anyway). There IS a line, and many Christians (as we discussed earlier) blur and cross that line, albeit usually with sincere intentions. That is where discernment comes in, which I know was discussed earlier. Discernment is a whole different soapbox, but I'll say this, I believe the idea of discernment is one of the top 3 misused and abused "spiritual" principles in the Bible today. It's real, but it is often represented incorrectly.
Heh. On rare occasions I've run across that exact thing in this very forum, when someone involved in an argumentative thread (typically a theological one) posts that they prayed for wisdom and God told them their viewpoint was right. Yeah, sure. I take it as a sign they felt cornered and decided to throw an elephant. It doesn't fly well here and is mostly dismissed.The other worrying aspect of discernment is that it's not disputable. If I claim to have discerned something (in the Christian sense) you have no real way of suggesting I may be wrong without questioning my faith. It effectively stops any real discussion. This means that claims of discernment (correct or not) can skate perilously close to claiming infallibility - "I can't be wrong because I discerned this".
Heh. On rare occasions I've run across that exact thing in this very forum, when someone involved in an argumentative thread (typically a theological one) posts that they prayed for wisdom and God told them their viewpoint was right. Yeah, sure. I take it as a sign they felt cornered and decided to throw an elephant. It doesn't fly well here and is mostly dismissed.
The gift of the discernment of spirits is a genuine New Testament concept, appearing in 1 Corinthians 12:10, and is actively practiced in some denominations. Not mine, though.
It's an oversimplification, but not inaccurate. Think of it as more of a spike or a fork in the road where one started down a bad path (with multiple forks within our lifetime)Thanks Topher.
You seem to be identifying demonic involvement with a kind of peak in bad (or non-Christian) behaviour (your 'bad fruit'). As a non-Christian with a (usually) evidenced based outlook, I admit that I struggle to understand some of these concepts.
Hence the soapbox I'm trying to avoid. Another variation of this is, "I felt led". The immature and the prideful use these to excuse all sorts of bad behavior.If you've been following the thread you will have seen me question whether all claims of discernment are equal and suggest that factual evidence has a reasonable place in the discernment process.
The other worrying aspect of discernment is that it's not disputable. If I claim to have discerned something (in the Christian sense) you have no real way of suggesting I may be wrong without questioning my faith. It effectively stops any real discussion. This means that claims of discernment (correct or not) can skate perilously close to claiming infallibility - "I can't be wrong because I discerned this".
Chris-topher, so you are rightI agree with everything that @topher694 said, he (sorry if wrong pronoun your profile gives an error) is much better at putting thoughts into words than I am.
One of the many things which has surprised me about Christianity, since joining CF back in 2012, is the apparently widespread Christian belief in the existence of demons. Attributing various negative events and strange experiences to demonic activity is a regular occurrence in this Forum, leaving the impression that belief in demons is broadly accepted by Christians.
How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?
OB
The opening case was a complete nightmare that did not fit any of the theoretical models that I was taught.
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