Demons and Christianity

Tom 1 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Hmmm - you're probably right.

Now - how do I gently let down the other expert contributors to this thread and explain that there's no such thing as a Protestant demon? The only Catholic contributor (I'm aware of) just said that demons are very real and very dangerous (post #2). He didn't mention they were all Catholic.

Seriously - it would have been fairly easy to assume a tight relationship between the Catholic Church and demons. I intentionally tried to avoid this since I had no real knowledge about the Catholic doctrinal attitude to demons, just stereotypical images derived from fiction and movies. I also wanted a thread which explored demonology in a broader Christian context without overtones of The Exorcist or Medieval baggage.

I wanted (and still want) to explore how Christians as a whole understand the concept of demons.

OB

The bible uses terms to describe what appear to be malevolent spiritual beings. It doesn’t describe them in detail. I’m saying Catholic not because demons are Catholic, if that’s what you mean, but because the Catholic Church has exorcists which I assume means they do have something like a system of categorisation, or something like that, as they would be dealing with possession now rather than just the mention of possession in the bible.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Tom 1 said:
The bible uses terms to describe what appear to be malevolent spiritual beings. It doesn’t describe them in detail. I’m saying Catholic not because demons are Catholic, if that’s what you mean, but because the Catholic Church has exorcists which I assume means they do have something like a system of categorisation, or something like that, as they would be dealing with possession now rather than just the mention of possession in the bible.

My reference to Catholic demons was just me exercising the dry humour for which I am no doubt famous.

If you look at my last post you'll see I've added a PS wherein I attempt to explain that my interest is in what people actually believe - not necessarily what the Bible says. Apologetics is a term for what people should believe. Unfortunately there's no word for what they actually believe. This is a problem looking for a solution. I am working on it.
OB

Tom 1 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
My reference to Catholic demons was just me exercising the dry humour for which I am no doubt famous.

If you look at my last post you'll see I've added a PS wherein I attempt to explain that my interest is in what people actually believe - not necessarily what the Bible says. Apologetics is a term for what people should believe. Unfortunately there's no word for what they actually believe. This is a problem looking for a solution. I am working on it.
OB

Beliefs?

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Beliefs?

Nooo.

Beliefs is a weasel word. Beliefs can be right, wrong, real, imagined, yours or mine and still be beliefs.

I need a stand alone word which says " This is what I know is true!", a sort of semantic equivalent to Trump without the bad hairdo.

OB

Tom 1 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Nooo.

Beliefs is a weasel word. Beliefs can be right, wrong, real, imagined, yours or mine and still be beliefs.

I need a stand alone word which says " This is what I know is true!", a sort of semantic equivalent to Trump without the bad hairdo.

OB

Convictions then maybe. I think you’ll have a hard time finding anyone who has a very specific interest in what is meant by terms like demon. Actually come to think of it C S Lewis’s Screwtape Letters could be seen as representing a generally Christian way of thinking about it.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Convictions then maybe. I think you’ll have a hard time finding anyone who has a very specific interest in what is meant by terms like demon. Actually come to think of it C S Lewis’s Screwtape Letters could be seen as representing a generally Christian way of thinking about it.

Tom .You would make an excellent straight man. I've known fenceposts with a more developed sense of humour but I'm not going to hold that against you.

It's late and I have to get up at 6.00 am to go to the Supermarket Geriatrics Only Hour and pick up my weekly supply of Porridge and Baked Beans. I will return tomorrow and try to be more serious.
OB

Tom 1 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Tom .You would make an excellent straight man. I've known fenceposts with a more developed sense of humour but I'm not going to hold that against you.

It's late and I have to get up at 6.00 am to go to the Supermarket Geriatrics Only Hour and pick up my weekly supply of Porridge and Baked Beans. I will return tomorrow and try to be more serious.
OB

Don’t knock a good fence post. A properly fixed fence post is a thing of beauty.

Silmarien · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
What is a demon?

Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

I would say that belief in demons is something of a majority view--the liberal churches that are more skeptical are the exception rather than the rule, and even there it's not that uncommon to find people who still take it literally. The difference would probably be whether demonic activity is discussed from the pulpit: I've heard sermons on quite literal spiritual warfare at the Eastern Orthodox church I visit, but never at an Episcopal or liberal Lutheran church.

(I am agnostic on this issue, though the similarity between stories of alien abductions and older tales of demonic activity and even old folklore on fairy kidnappings and similar stories in other cultures does give me pause. I think all of this stuff is the same phenomenon, though I don't have much of an opinion on whether it's psychological or real.)

Barney2.0 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Thank you for your reply. The problem I'm seeing is that it it doesn't really address the OP which asked about the nature of demon belief across Christian denominations.

While I asked about demons your answer focused on the evil nature of man. While interesting, it unfortunately didn't address the sorts of issues I raised.

The one thing I can take from your post is that the church you belong to (presumably an Eastern based Orthodox church) has a strong association with the concept of demons.

OB

I can’t speak of how other denominations view Satan according to their theology, but I’m sure most if not all Christian denominations conceive of him and demons as real and literal beings that can influence us. I don’t officially belong to any Church or communion I have not been baptized yet. But yes my theology is based on the Eastern-Oriental Orthodox conception.

2PhiloVoid · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
I'm no Bible expert but the 3 things you've mentioned seem to fall into the biblical literalist camp. I wonder, if I were not a Bible literalist, would I still accept this explanation for the origins of demons.

I don't know, but we have to wonder how and why Paul (being the earliest producer of N.T. writings) believed what he believed about Satan and the 'Dark Principalities.' He didn't get all of that by....reading the rest of the N.T.

So.........

This is perhaps the most concerning aspect of demons. Whether or not they exist, it concerns me when I see problems with normal, particularly medical/psychological, causes attributed to demonic activity. The question of whether demons exist is separate to the question of what specifically they are responsible for.

OB

Yes, I think you're on to something there, and if you read the N.T. carefully, you'll find there is a difference implied, however seemingly small or insignificant, by the N.T. writers between insanity, sickness and direct demonic possession. They might be linked in the minds of the N.T. writers, but I think it's a far cry to say that they thought these things were purely synonymous. So, ................. we might all want to chomp on that for a while.

Like a long while.

2PhiloVoid · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
One of the many things which has surprised me about Christianity, since joining CF back in 2012, is the apparently widespread Christian belief in the existence of demons. Attributing various negative events and strange experiences to demonic activity is a regular occurrence in this Forum, leaving the impression that belief in demons is broadly accepted by Christians.

In a recent example, I came across an opinion that so-called ‘aliens’ were actually (probably) demons and that alien cults were likely to be demon inspired. This is only one of many instances where I've seen demonic activity described as the cause of a negative event.

I’d be interested in hearing informed Christian opinion on the concept of demons particularly as it relates to the following questions:

What is a demon?

Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Please note that I am not advancing a personal opinion for or against the existence of demons. I’m curious about how they are perceived by Christians.

OB

Aliens being confused with Demons???!

Although I'll admit that I like Shyamalin's movie, Signs, quite a bit, I very much doubt that various conceptions of the 'demonic' held by ancient Jews was really anything contrived from any kind of outerspace alien fantasy. No, I think that what a number of biblical writers had in mind, with Ezekial being no exception, didn't so much look like this:

BUT INSTEAD SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Italy's desperate receive mafia offers they can't refuse (BBC Article)

Sketcher · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
So, your argument is that, since demons lie and witchcraft deceives, witchcraft must prove demonic success. I'm not seeing the logical linkage.

It's more like this: When witchcraft is successful, there must be something supernatural that is powering the success. God condemns witchcraft, so he has no motivation to power that success. Therefore, demons would be the ones powering that success.

Occams Barber said:
OK - demons have switched from possession to deception because they are less able to cope as the population grows and their numbers remain static. Is this a personal opinion or is it backed up with a more general interpretation of doctrine/theology?

What is widely accepted is that demons cannot reproduce and that they are involved in deception as well as possession and so forth. What is my personal opinion is that they have transitioned more to deception than possession in the face of human population growth.

coffee4u · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
You assume correctly. It's an issue I'd previously thought about but I didn't want to derail the original thread we were on.

This appears to be an emerging consensus apart from those who have suggested that demons are metaphorical constructs.

So far I'm seeing a majority opinion on the reality of demons although there is a view that more liberal church(es) (for example: Anglican?) may differ.

That is probably correct on the liberal churches. Anglicans vary a lot from high to low. I think they still believe in the devil but they did remove the word 'devil' from their baptism service.

Discernment is probably the rough equivalent of intuition in a secular world. I am not convinced that either approach is reliable without adding in an effort to understand the factual basis of what is being discerned. There is real danger that those practicing discernment will do so without first investigating real world explanations and place excessive reliance on 'feelings'. Occams razor suggests that the less complex answer is more likely. Commonsense suggests that the more informed opinion is more likely to be correct.
OB

Intuition is as close a word as you could get yes, but it is the guiding of the Holy Spirit as well. This isn't just for large things like demon possession (not an everyday thing) or strange occurrences like 'hauntings' but much more subtle everyday things. Like I said above if this is something larger and it does not appear to be physical or mental we would move onto the spiritual. Demons are not hiding behind every bush.
Hollywood's depiction is a complete character, nothing subtle or hidden there. The word occult means hidden and secret, that description is far more apt.
The Genesis account gives a very good picture both to those of us who believe it literally or to liberals who view it as a spiritual teaching.
"Did God really say" and Satan used similar words against Jesus in the wilderness "If you are the son of God". Doubt. This is more the everyday encounter.

God forbids certain activities because they are used by the devil and demons, it allows them in.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Those things can lead to possession.
Acts 16:16-40
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
That was all an 'exorcism' was, nothing fancy.

zippy2006 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
What is a demon?

A fallen angel, as others have said.

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Opinions vary. In my opinion the root of these differences lies in uncertainty about the nature of angels and demons. It's difficult since we are talking about beings that are magnitudes of order more powerful than human beings, so the idea that we can circumscribe their nature, powers, or behavior is ruled out from the get-go.

I think that's the starkest point that materialists miss: studying a spiritual being is not like studying a material being such as a platypus. Perhaps an ant could study (or control) a grain of sand, but in no way could it study or control an orangutan. We are the ant, and we oughtn't approach a grain of sand in the same way we approach an orangutan.

PloverWing · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Do you know if the Anglican Church has an official position on demons? My guess is 'no' but it's also possible that it is carefully non-committal.

I'm on my most familiar ground when I speak about the Episcopal Church in the US. There's lots of variation worldwide. The Diocese of Sydney, which was mentioned in another post, is on the conservative side of things. And many of the Anglican churches in Africa are conservative.

Here in the US, as far as I can tell, the church is going for "carefully non-committal". Satan is only mentioned once or twice in our Book of Common Prayer, and those mentions can be interpreted metaphorically. Demons other than Satan are not mentioned in the prayer book. My first parish priest understood Satan as a metaphor; my current parish priest (to my surprise) believes that demons are real beings.

This article, which I found on the web site of the national church, gives a good sense of the range of views in the church: Episcopalians reflect on the nature of evil and how to confront it

I suspect (but don't know) that you may be right about this attitude extending to other, more liberal churches.

I'm hoping @hedrick will chime in. He has a good sense of the mainline churches, including his own mainline Presbyterian Church USA.

While I have no personal problem with people believing in demons, as I've said in other posts in this thread, I am concerned where reasonable natural explanations are pushed aside in favour of demonic activity. This is a particular concern when it comes to psychological phenomena like hallucinations and auditory illusions. Even Christians can apply Occam's Razor usefully.

As you'll see in the article I linked to, in my church, even those who believe in literal demons tend to use demonic explanations as a last resort rather than a first resort -- only when all the standard natural physical and psychological explanations are inadequate do they consider demons as a possibility. As you say, Occam's Razor is useful to us even when we're in church; we don't leave our scientific training outside the church door.

Swan7 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Hi Swan

Thank you for your reply. You obviously put in a lot of effort to put it together.

Can I give you a tip? We atheists are very rational (OK - regimented ) in our thinking. The best way to discuss things with us is to answer things point by point. That way you can be sure you've directly addressed the issues which were raised.

That said - you have addressed the issue of how a Christian might decide if something is demon caused or not. Your answer was 'discernment' which is something Christians often refer to. The problem with discernment is that there is no clear way of knowing if a discernment is actually correct. Wrong discernment, especially when it attributes something with a natural explanation to demonic causes, can result in real problems. I have no problem with the general idea of discernment as long as it includes considering the natural factors (i.e. non-demonic).

In other words I think that discernment is most effective when it also takes account of factual information along with any sense of God's will. I'm not a Christian but I suspect even God might agree that factual information is a very useful tool when deciding what is the best course of action.

OB

Yes, it took a bit for me to put that together lol. Thanks for the appreciation of my reply, that’s very admirable.

Forgive me, I’m not the greatest when it comes to explanations, but I am glad I answered at least something you asked. It’s difficult for me to place perspective when taking to a non-Christian.

Please allow me to address the issue of discernment. As a Christian, discernment comes from God and a certain level of it each to their own level of faith.

Can a person on their own accord use wrong judgement? Absolutely. But relying on God and His strength over our own, discernment from Him will never fail.

As Christians we heavily rely on our God as He knows and sees all things where we do not. I really hope you can understand how I’m trying to convey the two differences

Thanks for your patience!

2PhiloVoid · May 12, 2020

PloverWing said:
I'm on my most familiar ground when I speak about the Episcopal Church in the US. There's lots of variation worldwide. The Diocese of Sydney, which was mentioned in another post, is on the conservative side of things. And many of the Anglican churches in Africa are conservative.

Here in the US, as far as I can tell, the church is going for "carefully non-committal". Satan is only mentioned once or twice in our Book of Common Prayer, and those mentions can be interpreted metaphorically. Demons other than Satan are not mentioned in the prayer book. My first parish priest understood Satan as a metaphor; my current parish priest (to my surprise) believes that demons are real beings.

This article, which I found on the web site of the national church, gives a good sense of the range of views in the church: Episcopalians reflect on the nature of evil and how to confront it

I'm hoping @hedrick will chime in. He has a good sense of the mainline churches, including his own mainline Presbyterian Church USA.

As you'll see in the article I linked to, in my church, even those who believe in literal demons tend to use demonic explanations as a last resort rather than a first resort -- only when all the standard natural physical and psychological explanations are inadequate do they consider demons as a possibility. As you say, Occam's Razor is useful to us even when we're in church; we don't leave our scientific training outside the church door.

Actually, I'm going to chime in and say that Occam's Razor, in this instance, probably shouldn't be resorted to all that easily. Whether any of us is Liberal or we're Conservative, or something in-between, this wouldn't mean that our overall hermeneutics should automatically assume the allowance of an intrusive presence of Occam's Razor, and so we probably shouldn't just start having a field day while singing to the tune of the Barbor of Seville ....

PloverWing · May 12, 2020

@2PhiloVoid You mean I should put my Sweeney Todd album away?

2PhiloVoid · May 12, 2020

PloverWing said:
@2PhiloVoid You mean I should put my Sweeney Todd album away?

Maybe. Unless you just really feel like swinging that razor around ... ... I mean, I know you hard scientist types and what you're capable of!

ChetSinger · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
What is a demon?

Hello! In many churches today demons are taught to be fallen angels. But to the Jews in the 2nd temple period and to the early church fathers they were something different: the disembodied spirits of dead men, specifically the nephilim. They were the forbidden offspring of fallen angels and human women, and when they died they were denied the grave along with other men because of their mixed parentage. They were sentenced to roam the earth without bodies, continuously hungry and thirsty, until the final judgment. Their fathers were sentenced to be chained in darkness in the underworld.

Multiple church fathers wrote of this including Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Lactantius, and Commodianus. Given a little time I can find the references if you wish to read them yourself. And afaik it was the default Jewish belief of the time. Even Josephus, the famous Jewish historian, included it in "Antiquities of the Jews". So the belief was considered to be historical, not theological.

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