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Democracy is the worst form of government...

John Helpher

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That is why I suggested improved civic education.
I think the teachings of Jesus would be a good model for the curriculum. I was reading some old testament stuff the other day and was struck by how consistently God lamented the lack of judgment among his people. I think our current weird society where no one is supposed to judge but everyone does anyway is evidence that the teachings of Jesus are necessary for developing healthy, consistent judgment.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Does Jesus preach anything about knowing the candidates positions before voting? (No of course he didn't.) The teachings of Jesus would be a lousy basis for a curriculum on civics and politics. They just aren't relevant.
 
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John Helpher

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Does Jesus preach anything about knowing the candidates positions before voting?
Yes, he does. He says we'll know who a person is by listening carefully to the things they say (e.g. from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks).
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yes, he does. He says we'll know who a person is by listening carefully to the things they say (e.g. from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks).

So bland platitudes? That's what you want to use to promote better civic education?
 
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public hermit

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Yes, he does. He says we'll know who a person is by listening carefully to the things they say (e.g. from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks).

That's too general. Acts 15 informed Presbyterian polity, which is a representative form of government. Yay Presbyterians. But Presbyterian polity was also informed by republics that had no lineage with Christianity, e.g. Roman.

We don't need Jesus to teach us civics; we have a perfectly capable secular basis for that. Let's let Jesus do the heavy lifting and leave cares of the polis to the sufficiency of human reason and experience. We don't need Jesus to invent the wheel when we've already got one.
 
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John Helpher

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That's too general.
In worldly terms it would probably be called active listening, and far from being too general, it is actually far too rare. The bible seems to suggest the people believed this to be some kind of miraculous ability, e.g. "Jesus, knowing what was in their heart, told them a story..." It's almost like mind reading, and it frightened and angered people all around him.

See, Jesus wasn't promoting any government system. He was promoting the values of the kingdom of Heaven. In that place, this is how the citizens behave. It is a superior system to what we have today, if only people would practice it.
 
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John Helpher

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Would you prefer "deepity"?
I would prefer to hear your thoughts on whether it is possible to know who a person is based on what they say. Because, if you think careful listening really is just a bland paltitude, then chatting with you probably won't be much fun.
 
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That's not a sufficient civics curriculum. If that were one small piece, then okay. But you have a long way to find in the teachings of Jesus what is needed for a well functioning republic. I won't say it's impossible, but you will have to stretch what he taught to an extent which will transcend what he did say.

I tried to help by mentioning the Jerusalem Council where each group was represented and everyone had a chance to speak. There's no vote, although we're told the decision was unanimous, since James makes the final decision, but key pieces to a representative government are present. But, instead, you're talking about active listening. That's good, but that's a long way from a civics curriculum.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Those are the sort of basic life advice that can be found anywhere and is generally need to function as an adult human. It really doesn't address the real problems of poor civic understanding in the public. I'm talking about the kind of things that lead voters:

* to vote for or against some one for something they have no control over or happens at a different level of government. The new stoplight on Main street that you hate has nothing to do with who the president is or what their party is. Likewise, Donald Trump didn't cause the economic crash in the Spring 2020, nor did Joe Bide cause eggs to go drastically in price a few years later. Both were caused by viruses.

* not understand that they can go and select party candidates in primaries

* not understand what certain elected officials do and who is running for what office.

and the list could go on. These are things that can be addressed with civics education and outreach, and no amount of generic life advice is going to make a difference when there are specific deficiencies in knowledge to target.
 
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John Helpher

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If that were one small piece, then okay.
I hesitate to refer to careful listening as a small issue, but you are correct that it is one piece. Jesus said a lot about judgment and authority.

For example, he said to be wary of leaders who enjoy special decorations on their clothing and who love special titles like Sir and Mr. These people are not good leadership material.

He warned his followers not to be like worldly leaders who lord their authority over others. Using authority to make yourself seem better than others is another indicator of bad leadership.

He said that the greatest leaders will be those who serve. He said we will be held accountable for every idle word. He said good leaders will judge themselves, first, and that they will only use the kind of judgment on others that they themselves would be okay with.

Yes, I think we need much more of the teachings of Jesus not just in civics, but in all areas of life.
 
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John Helpher

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You've said a lot about the results of poor civic education, but what about the civic education itself? You suggest that it is better than something basic and obvious like careful listening. See, I've given several specific examples of Jesus' teachings, what they are, and why they make practical sense.

What does your alternative include?
 
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Hans Blaster

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You've said a lot about the results of poor civic education, but what about the civic education itself?
Seconday education is not my area of expertise. I would leave the details to the professionals in curriculum.
You suggest that it is better than something basic and obvious like careful listening. See, I've given several specific examples of Jesus' teachings, what they are, and why they make practical sense.
Pass.
What does your alternative include?
Keep religion out of government, like it should be.
 
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John Helpher

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Seconday education is not my area of expertise. I would leave the details to the professionals in curriculum.

Pass.

Keep religion out of government, like it should be.
I think governance should also be rational. Jesus said that it is important to use fair judgment. Do you think that should be kept out of government because it's part of what you view as religious? That is cognitive dissonance. I don't think that is a good alternative to what Jesus offered.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I think governance should also be rational.
Great, let's do that.
Jesus said that it is important to use fair judgment.
Don't need jesus to tell you that. This Jesus you offer is quite unremarkable.
Do you think that should be kept out of government because it's part of what you view as religious? That is cognitive dissonance. I don't think that is a good alternative to what Jesus offered.
If the "religion" you offer is just some common advice that can be found in any number of ancient text then it is irrelevant to where it come from. If it is not so ordinary, then it has no place in government.
 
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Whyayeman

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Jesus said that it is important to use fair judgment.
Any amount of people have said the same. The trick about fair judgment is deciding what is fair. This has got us nowhere.

I have already suggested that democracy would benefit from a good understanding of the institutions of a democratic society; the chambers of Parliament, the justice system, the role of the press in a free society, local and national governance, international relations and so on.

Religious education is compulsory in this country and has done very little to halt the wholesale departure of the population from all religions, particularly Christian. It has no place in political education.

If you want a Jesus quote, here you are:

Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

Mark 12:17

I think this is a good example of dodging the issue.
 
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John Helpher

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The trick about fair judgment is deciding what is fair. This has got us nowhere.
Honestly, I think you're illustrating the very problem you're describing. Yes, sometimes discerning what is fair judgment can be tricky, but what's the alternative? You say that many people have said what Jesus said, but is there anyone doing what Jesus said? When I mentioned careful listening earlier, the response was that such a thing is too bland and obvious to be of much importance.

A good understanding of institutions? What does that even mean?
 
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Whyayeman

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Democratic institutions such as the system of voting and the alternative systems practised in other places; our bicameral Parliament and alternative forms in other countries; the structure of the justice system (ours is ancient and complicated by obscure historic terms); the function of the Monarch in a constitutional monarchy; other kinds of head of state such as executive President, nominal head of state; the media...

I could go on. I hope I have made myself clearer.

Yes, sometimes discerning what is fair judgment can be tricky, but what's the alternative?

A thorough grounding in civics. An informed electorate is better than an ignorant one, surely?
 
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