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Tranquil Bondservant · Jan 15, 2023

Growing up in Adventism here in NSW I've noticed a tendency to demonise Constantine and use him as some kind of line to say in effect "this side of the line Christianity" "this side of the line paganism". I'm not sure if this is related to the fact that he changed the Sabbath day or what, but there seems to be absolutely no nuance or leeway given to the absolute magnitude of what occurred during his early life and reign, nor the complexity of the issues surrounding them. Nor even the fact that to the persecuted Church seeing an entire empire begin to convert, the shutting down and superseding of pagan temples and the compensation/restoration of properties, funds & etc to those who lost it in the persecutions must have seemed like nothing other than a miracle. Also given that the creeds unite our de-centralised Protestant denominations we would be in debt to the tradition of Ecumenical Councils.

I'm just curious, have you guys noticed the same where you live?

BobRyan · Jan 15, 2023

Tranquil Bondservant said:
Growing up in Adventism here in NSW I've noticed a tendency to demonise Constantine and use him as some kind of line to say in effect "this side of the line Christianity" "this side of the line paganism". I'm not sure if this is related to the fact that he changed the Sabbath day or what, but there seems to be absolutely no nuance or leeway given to the absolute magnitude of what occurred during his early life and reign, nor the complexity of the issues surrounding them. Nor even the fact that to the persecuted Church seeing an entire empire begin to convert, the shutting down and superseding of pagan temples and the compensation/restoration of properties, funds & etc to those who lost it in the persecutions must have seemed like nothing other than a miracle. Also given that the creeds unite our de-centralised Protestant denominations we would be in debt to the tradition of Ecumenical Councils.

I'm just curious, have you guys noticed the same where you live?

Thomas Bokenkotter (a practicing Catholic) - a modern Catholic Historian - in his book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" speaks of that pivotal moment with Constantine this way --

"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. " (Bokenkotter. Pg 49)

"The liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection, devotion to relics, and the use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians began to face the east while praying which made it necessary or he priest to lead prayers with his back to the congregation. P42.3

" This alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed some serious drawbacks; infringements on the church’s freedom as civil authorities exploited the relationship for political purposes (and vice versa); mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39

Catholics themselves admit to this pivotal point in history -- but it is not at though all was pristine perfection in the church before that.

Petros2015 · Jan 15, 2023

Tranquil Bondservant said:
I'm just curious, have you guys noticed the same where you live?

Constantine is Sainted in the Eastern Orthodox tradition and honored as an important figure in Roman Catholic

Certainly an interesting and influential fellow, worth knowing about from a variety of sources and perspectives

Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

ww1.antiochian.org

eleos1954 · Jan 15, 2023

Tranquil Bondservant said:
Growing up in Adventism here in NSW I've noticed a tendency to demonise Constantine and use him as some kind of line to say in effect "this side of the line Christianity" "this side of the line paganism". I'm not sure if this is related to the fact that he changed the Sabbath day or what, but there seems to be absolutely no nuance or leeway given to the absolute magnitude of what occurred during his early life and reign, nor the complexity of the issues surrounding them. Nor even the fact that to the persecuted Church seeing an entire empire begin to convert, the shutting down and superseding of pagan temples and the compensation/restoration of properties, funds & etc to those who lost it in the persecutions must have seemed like nothing other than a miracle. Also given that the creeds unite our de-centralised Protestant denominations we would be in debt to the tradition of Ecumenical Councils.

I'm just curious, have you guys noticed the same where you live?

The Ecumenical Councils is put forth by the Catholic Church and placing themselves as the authority over all. They promote humanism. It is a Venus flytrap. Make no mistake .... their aim is to have control over the entire earth ... regardless of what "flowery words" they may put forth.

I will not bow down to anyone except Jesus.

Mark 13:5-6
And Jesus began to say to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. Many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He!’ and will mislead many.

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism

“The infallibility of the pope is the infallibility of Jesus Christ Himself. . . whenever the pope thinks, it is God Himself, who is thinking in him.” (Fritz Leist, Der Gefangene des Vatikanus, p. 344. Quoted in Symposium on Revelation, pp. 340-341)

and nothing has changed .... nor will it.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 15, 2023

Tranquil Bondservant said:
Growing up in Adventism here in NSW I've noticed a tendency to demonise Constantine and use him as some kind of line to say in effect "this side of the line Christianity" "this side of the line paganism". I'm not sure if this is related to the fact that he changed the Sabbath day or what, but there seems to be absolutely no nuance or leeway given to the absolute magnitude of what occurred during his early life and reign, nor the complexity of the issues surrounding them. Nor even the fact that to the persecuted Church seeing an entire empire begin to convert, the shutting down and superseding of pagan temples and the compensation/restoration of properties, funds & etc to those who lost it in the persecutions must have seemed like nothing other than a miracle. Also given that the creeds unite our de-centralised Protestant denominations we would be in debt to the tradition of Ecumenical Councils.

I'm just curious, have you guys noticed the same where you live?

Constantine is only demonized by non-historical christian churches who do not know church history.
The fallacies they commit are too numerous to list.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 15, 2023

BobRyan said:
Thomas Bokenkotter (a practicing Catholic) - a modern Catholic Historian - in his book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" speaks of that pivotal moment with Constantine this way --

"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. " (Bokenkotter. Pg 49)

"The liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection, devotion to relics, and the use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians began to face the east while praying which made it necessary or he priest to lead prayers with his back to the congregation. P42.3

" This alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed some serious drawbacks; infringements on the church’s freedom as civil authorities exploited the relationship for political purposes (and vice versa); mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39

Catholics themselves admit to this pivotal point in history -- but it is not at though all was pristine perfection in the church before that.

The nonsense you are quoting is simply a rehash of

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire which tells me your source is not by a well trained historian.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 15, 2023

nothing to say except go to primary sources.

Tranquil Bondservant · Jan 15, 2023

Sorry all but I meant this for my Adventist friends, I was asking for their experiences with it. That's why I posted it here in the Traditional Adventist group. I'm well aware of the tendency for ignorance to provoke demonisation, we Adventists get lumped in with Jehovah's Witnesses all the time due to it.

Daniel Marsh said:
nothing to say except go to primary sources.

I have, I'm not against Constantine. If you read his letters (or records of speeches of fealty to him) he clearly early on in his life was arguably a Christian. He acknowledged 'the supreme God' and associated God with Sol Invictus but also equally clearly he later on in life was a staunch Christian focused on the unity of The Church. If anything I'd argue that the paganism crept in from the amount of converts more than any one decision Constantine made.

Tranquil Bondservant · Jan 15, 2023

eleos1954 said:
I will not bow down to anyone except Jesus.

Brother I never suggested otherwise.

eleos1954 said:
The Ecumenical Councils is put forth by the Catholic Church and placing themselves as the authority over all. They promote humanism. It is a Venus flytrap. Make no mistake .... their aim is to have control over the entire earth ... regardless of what "flowery words" they may put forth.

We don't accept them all, most Protestants don't. The Ecumenical Councils that we subscribe to took place before Roman Papal supremacy existed. But even you accept the Nicene Creed, not on the basis of tradition but on the basis that it is exposition of scripture. The councils weren't all bad and given the nature of the conversion of the Roman Empire and literacy rates at the time I'd argue that the early ones were really good and acted as a positive force of Christian communal cohesion.

Tranquil Bondservant · Jan 15, 2023

BobRyan said:
"The liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection, devotion to relics, and the use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court.

I'm not sure if you have seen it already but Gavin Ortlund recently did a fantastic video on this. I figured I'd leave it here in case you were interested:

Ignore the thumbnail. He usually is pretty serious with it but he must have thought the video was important and thorough enough to warrant something more click-baity.

BobRyan · Jan 15, 2023

Daniel Marsh said:
The nonsense you are quoting is simply a rehash of

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire which tells me your source is not by a well trained historian.

You are free to trash Catholic historians (such as Thomas Bokenkotter) if you must - but you will need to come up with actual logic for it.

BobRyan · Jan 15, 2023

Daniel Marsh said:
Constantine is only demonized by non-historical christian churches who do not know church history.

You are making self-conflicted posts when you trash the catholic historian we are quoting while claiming that people who quote historians don't know church history.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 17, 2023

BobRyan said:
You are making self-conflicted posts when you trash the catholic historian we are quoting while claiming that people who quote historians don't know church history.

If you read the guy I say is not a real historian you will find he uses fifth level of sources.
Zero level is primary sources. By the time it gets to the fifth level it is just plain silly nonsense.

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The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire which tells me your source is not by a well trained historian.​

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