Defending devotion to the Saints

Standing Up · Feb 14, 2013

narnia59 said:
Conditional on what?

You've provided the role of the Levitical priesthood. They were indeed separated for this purpose. IIn context, Hebrews 7:14 is referring to priests who serve at the altar, i.e. the Levitical priesthood.

None of which denies the role of the priesthood of the nation. Nothing about a nation of priests in the OT? Exodus 19:6 "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests". Not in the role to serve at the altar. But hardly 'no such thing'. I'm sure you'll continue to deny it however.

No word games

There's Levi who had the Sinai priesthood. Of the other tribes, Moses spoke nothing concerning the priesthood.

Deut. 10:8 At that time [at Sinai] the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day.

The other 11 tribes do not function as priests.

Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

There is no such thing as what y'all are suggesting about sacerdotal priests and nation of priests, in the OT Sinai conditional covenant.

Nothing, except a redefinition of the terms to suit a different theology.

narnia59 · Feb 14, 2013

Standing Up said:
No word games

There's Levi who had the Sinai priesthood. Of the other tribes, Moses spoke nothing concerning the priesthood.

Deut. 10:8 At that time [at Sinai] the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day.

The other 11 tribes do not function as priests.

Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

There is no such thing as what y'all are suggesting about sacerdotal priests and nation of priests, in the OT Sinai conditional covenant.

Nothing, except a redefinition of the terms to suit a different theology.

Context is everything -- Moses is speaking the priests who served at the altar. Only the Levites did that.

GOD DID speak about the priesthood regarding the rest of Israel.

Exodus 19:6 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests

I'm not the one who in order to suit my theology has to make up a story that God revokes the priesthood of the nation from the Israelites (along with being His chosen people) when Scripture says no such thing.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

I'm not the one who has to ignore that Isaiah says that 'some' of the Gentiles will become 'priests and Levites'.

I'm not the one who has to ignore that St. Paul views his ministry as being 'priestly service' so that the offering of the Gentiles (the priesthood of believers) will be acceptable. Two forms of priesthood right there in the NT, with Christ as high priest. Just as foreshadowed in the OT.

Standing Up · Feb 15, 2013

narnia59 said:
Context is everything -- Moses is speaking the priests who served at the altar. Only the Levites did that.

Exactly. Now, unless you redefine, expand the definition of priest, that's the point.

Deut. 10:8 At that time [at Sinai] the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day.

The other 11 tribes do not function as priests.

Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

There is no such thing as what y'all are suggesting about sacerdotal priests and nation of priests, in the OT Sinai conditional covenant.

I've already dealt with Ex. 19:6---see Deut 10:8 above. They refused to hear His voice, therefore God separated the tribe of Levi to be the priests.

I've already dealt with Romans 11:29---the Sinai covenant was conditional. Do you understand that word or have you also redefined it?

As far as Isa 66 goes, you need to tell me if you're a sabbath keeper per the 10 commandments or not? Do you observe the full moon?

Standing Up · Feb 15, 2013

narnia59 said:
Context is everything -- Moses is speaking the priests who served at the altar. Only the Levites did that.

GOD DID speak about the priesthood regarding the rest of Israel.-snip-

Nope. Only to Levite.

Ex. 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them [sons of Aaron-Levites], as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Jos. 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD [is] their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.

The Levites are the priests. The other 11 tribes have nothing to do with the priesthood.

When they returned from the Babylonian captivity, IF Narnia59 is right, then they had no reason to search the records to actually find the descendants of Levi. They could have used descendants of Benjamin or Reuben or any of the other 9 tribes. But they didn't.

Neh. 7:64 These sought their register [among] those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

The idea of a nation of OT priests is a myth. There's the 11 and Levi (the priestly tribe).

As such, the Sinai model has zero to do with those of us out from Zion whose high priest and nation of priests is of the order of Melchizedek.

Standing Up · Feb 15, 2013

And more that says there was only the Levites as priests and not the 11 tribes.

Num. 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Had sons of Dan or Judah tried ministering in the OT Sinai covenant, they'd have been put to death. There is no such thing as a nation of OT Sinai priests.

Again, Christ's priesthood, the Christian's priesthood is something totally and completely different from the Sinai model.

Wrong model
Sinai- (order of Levi)
High Priest -- Pope/Patriarch
Priests -- clergy
Nation -- laity

Right model
Zion- (order of Melchizedek)
High Priest -- Christ Jesus
Priests -- believers in Christ Jesus

Standing Up · Feb 15, 2013

narnia59 said:
GOD DID speak about the priesthood regarding the rest of Israel.

Exodus 19:6 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests

I'm not the one who in order to suit my theology has to make up a story that God revokes the priesthood of the nation from the Israelites (along with being His chosen people) when Scripture says no such thing.

Except scripture does say such a thing.

Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Nothing. But you'll continue to place your opinion above scripture?

The alternative to your opinion-above-scripture is to understand what I've been explaining. Sinai was a conditional offer at Ex. prior to the covenant. They refused. Therefore God separated Levi to be the priesthood. Of the rest, Moses spoke nothing about the priesthood because it doesn't exist.

So, there is no such thing in the OT or NT as two different kinds of priests (sacerdotal and special).

In the NT, Christ is the High Priest and believers are of His priesthood.

Thekla · Feb 18, 2013

Standing Up said:
Except scripture does say such a thing.

Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Nothing. But you'll continue to place your opinion above scripture?

The alternative to your opinion-above-scripture is to understand what I've been explaining. Sinai was a conditional offer at Ex. prior to the covenant. They refused. Therefore God separated Levi to be the priesthood. Of the rest, Moses spoke nothing about the priesthood because it doesn't exist.

So, there is no such thing in the OT or NT as two different kinds of priests (sacerdotal and special).

In the NT, Christ is the High Priest and believers are of His priesthood.

There are two words in the NT translated as "priest" -- in Greek they have distinct meanings. You are confusing the sloppy choices an English translator made for theology.

Standing Up · Feb 18, 2013

Thekla said:
There are two words in the NT translated as "priest" -- in Greek they have distinct meanings. You are confusing the sloppy choices an English translator made for theology.

Ok. and to Hbr. its hierosune

Priesthood, Priest's Office:
"a priesthood," signifies the office, quality, rank and ministry of "a priest," Hbr 7:11, 12, 24, where the contrasts between the Levitical "priesthood" and that of Christ are set forth.

Again, nothing about Judah and OT/Sinai priesthood.

Thekla · Feb 18, 2013

Standing Up said:
Ok. and to Hbr. its hierosune

Priesthood, Priest's Office:
"a priesthood," signifies the office, quality, rank and ministry of "a priest," Hbr 7:11, 12, 24, where the contrasts between the Levitical "priesthood" and that of Christ are set forth.

Again, nothing about Judah and OT/Sinai priesthood.

So what is your point ? All in the body are iereus, not all are presbyters.
Just as not all heal, not all teach, not all are the foot, not all are the hand.

By constantly re-interpreting an ordered (taksis/heirarchical ordering/Paul's term) worship to claim evidence of something that is not (that the Eucharist is a new sacrifice, which only you claim as a dig), you capture the NT Church (as evidenced in Scripture) in your slam. Good job. Is that what you're after, to prove that by the time of Paul the Church had fallen away ?

Standing Up · Feb 18, 2013

Thekla said:
So what is your point ? All in the body are iereus, not all are presbyters.
Just as not all heal, not all teach, not all are the foot, not all are the hand.

By constantly re-interpreting an ordered (taksis/heirarchical ordering/Paul's term) worship to claim evidence of something that is not (that the Eucharist is a new sacrifice, which only you claim as a dig), you capture the NT Church (as evidenced in Scripture) in your slam. Good job. Is that what you're after, to prove that by the time of Paul the Church had fallen away ?

No idea what you're going on about.

Presbyters are translated as elders, not priests, in 11 translations. Which version do you/EO use to get presbyers translated as priests?

Thekla · Feb 24, 2013

Standing Up said:
No idea what you're going on about.

Presbyters are translated as elders, not priests, in 11 translations. Which version do you/EO use to get presbyers translated as priests?

On these boards most people use the term priest to refer to iereus and presbyter -- in communicating with people here, we use their terminology.

You have taken a vernacular use of priest for presbyteros which has been maintained from an earlier era, and use it a a cudgel. In this, there is a refusal to try and understand the etymology and historical shifting of terminology - a refusal to want to understand what another is saying and meaning - in order to achieve some personal goal. That's not communication, not discussion, not dialogue, and not respectful.

I am "going on about" the insistence on holding a view intent on questioning the RC which, if applied to the NT also, discredits the NT era Churches as well (at Corinth, at Collassae, etc.) If you want to use the twisting of words to discredit the NT, continue to have at it - I just happen to find that disturbing.

Standing Up · Feb 24, 2013

Thekla said:
On these boards most people use the term priest to refer to iereus and presbyter -- in communicating with people here, we use their terminology.

You have taken a vernacular use of priest for presbyteros which has been maintained from an earlier era, and use it a a cudgel. In this, there is a refusal to try and understand the etymology and historical shifting of terminology - a refusal to want to understand what another is saying and meaning - in order to achieve some personal goal. That's not communication, not discussion, not dialogue, and not respectful.

I am "going on about" the insistence on holding a view intent on questioning the RC which, if applied to the NT also, discredits the NT era Churches as well (at Corinth, at Collassae, etc.) If you want to use the twisting of words to discredit the NT, continue to have at it - I just happen to find that disturbing.

Again, still no idea what you're talking about. 11 translations have presbyter as elder. None translate it priest. What translation do you use? The "historical shifting of terminology" one?

Thekla · Feb 25, 2013

Standing Up said:
Again, still no idea what you're talking about. 11 translations have presbyter as elder. None translate it priest. What translation do you use? The "historical shifting of terminology" one?

Some of the older (western) translations use priest; the usage of 'priest' for presbyter is easily evidenced with a bit of research into historic usage.

For example, you could research the etymology of the English word "priest". If so doing, you will find that it has its origin in the Greek "presbyteros.

Standing Up · Feb 25, 2013

Thekla said:
Some of the older (western) translations use priest; the usage of 'priest' for presbyter is easily evidenced with a bit of research into historic usage.

For example, you could research the etymology of the English word "priest". If so doing, you will find that it has its origin in the Greek "presbyteros.

How about the Latin for presbyter?

Thekla · Feb 26, 2013

Standing Up said:
How about the Latin for presbyter?

priest (n.)
Old English preost, shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon, Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, from Vulgar Latin *prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros (see Presbyterian). In Old Testament sense, a translation of Hebrew kohen, Greek hiereus, Latin sacerdos.
Online Etymology Dictionary

Standing Up · Feb 26, 2013

Strong's on presbyter:

b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches): Acts 11:30; Acts 14:23; Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22; Acts 16:4; Acts 21:18; 1 Timothy 5:17, 19; Titus 1:5; 2 John 1:1; 3 John 1:1; 1 Peter 5:1, 5; with τῆς ἐκκλησίας added, Acts 20:17; James 5:14.
Strong's Greek: 4245. ÏÏÎµÏÎ²ÏÏÎµÏÎ¿Ï (presbuteros) -- elder

Nothing about priest.

Thekla · Feb 26, 2013

Standing Up said:
Strong's on presbyter:

b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches): Acts 11:30; Acts 14:23; Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22; Acts 16:4; Acts 21:18; 1 Timothy 5:17, 19; Titus 1:5; 2 John 1:1; 3 John 1:1; 1 Peter 5:1, 5; with τῆς ἐκκλησίας added, Acts 20:17; James 5:14.
Strong's Greek: 4245. ÏÏÎµÏÎ²ÏÏÎµÏÎ¿Ï (presbuteros) -- elder

Nothing about priest.

That entry does not reflect the etymology of the English word ...

Standing Up · Feb 27, 2013

Thekla said:
That entry does not reflect the etymology of the English word ...

That's because presbyteros means elder. Not priest.

Thekla · Feb 27, 2013

Standing Up said:
That's because presbyteros means elder. Not priest.

And presbyteros, in English has (at least two) translations: priest, elder.

Elder is etymologically derived from the Old English eldra.

Priest is etymologically derived from the Greek presbyteros.

Standing Up · Feb 27, 2013

Thekla said:
And presbyteros, in English has (at least two) translations: priest, elder.

Elder is etymologically derived from the Old English eldra.

Priest is etymologically derived from the Greek presbyteros.

Only in the RC bible (DR).

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