Decision VS Free-Will

Rightglory · Jan 25, 2010

randall jones,

It is true, scripture says that God does not tempt man. However, I'm reminded of Job. God gave permission to Satan to tempt Job. So while Satan was the one directly responsible for tempting Job, is not God then indirectly responsible for the temptation by giving His permission? What do you guys think?

No, for the same reason that Adam was created and given a commandment. God did not cause, or force Adam to sin. Satan is the one who tempted Adam and Adam, using the gift that all men possess, weighed that temptation and chose to sin rather than not sin.

You are missing the whole story of Job by trying to interject a free will versus no free will when that is not what the story is about.

Basis_Vectors · Jan 25, 2010

Rightglory said:
randall jones,

No, for the same reason that Adam was created and given a commandment. God did not cause, or force Adam to sin. Satan is the one who tempted Adam and Adam, using the gift that all men possess, weighed that temptation and chose to sin rather than not sin.

You are missing the whole story of Job by trying to interject a free will versus no free will when that is not what the story is about.

If I know that you will get hit by a car crossing the street, but I don't tell you or try to stop you even though you will die, what would you say to me?

I wonder how long Adam was depressed or upset knowing he played an integral part in the fall and demise of the rest of the Human race.

Or, perhaps you know in 30 years the world will be nearly uninhabitable, but you still have kids. Now, you know it would be grim and darkness for them all of their lives, yet you still have a child: what would you say to yourself?

God may not have forced Adam to sin, but it was planned as there would be no need for Jesus to be the savior. So what about this?

cygnusx1 · Jan 25, 2010

Philothei said:
That is not the subject of this thread. Rather than making comments on the posters it would be more preferable to stick to the comments the posters make. Not their motives and style and what have you. It is an opinion presented here by all of us. The ECF are widely accepted by many Protestant stands and churches i do not see how the aftermentioned 'theologian" can stand in comparisson to them. That is all we are saying. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and free to express it here And yes the ECF are "big" and they are due to their participation and contribution to the Chritian message. Some martyered because of percecution and that is the highest honor for a Christian to attain. Thus that is why they are set as an example and esteemed.

I see , so you disagree with RG and accept that those who are not Apostles or ECF may have something true to say and that they will not simply be counted as nothing because they do not fit that criteria ?

Fine , I am willing to discuss further , but I am not going to discuss further where the same old "but your not an Apostle or an ECF " is being used to defend an arbitrary default defence , for what would be the point ?

cygnusx1 · Jan 25, 2010

Thekla said:
Commenting on scripture is not the same as being aright in the understanding.

same goes for every Orthodox believer .

randall jones · Jan 25, 2010

Philothei said:
As far as predestination I believe it does not exist except if one is doing God's will then one can say that willingly is following Christ. God does have a plan for us IF we decide to follow Him.

I think its safe to say all beliefs of Christianity say that God does indeed have a plan for us. Where they differ, is the "IF we decide to follow Him" part.

Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

I'm curious, honestly, do some really believe that God has a plan for us, but that plan's success is completely determined by us?

Is God's plan for us perfect and absolute? Obviously not, if we can "freely" choose to opt out at any given time.

Does scripture even say that God gave man free will? Or is that a man created idea? Oh, but we were created in the image of God, and God has free will therefore we do too. That's awesome! If that were the case, wouldn't we be all powerful and all knowing as well since we ARE created in the image of God right? I can't wait to create my own universe! Anybody have the instruction manual?

For the record, I am a seeker of the truth who is increasingly leaning towards Calvinism. I believe we have the ability to make choices. The question is..."Are my choices free?" The apostles "chose" to follow Jesus. But was that according to their "free" will? Or did God chose the twelve to choose to follow Jesus?

My eyes have officially gone cross-eyed due to thought overload. I mean no offense in my comments so apologies in advance just in case.

Basis_Vectors · Jan 25, 2010

randall jones said:
I think its safe to say all beliefs of Christianity say that God does indeed have a plan for us. Where they differ, is the "IF we decide to follow Him" part.

Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

I'm curious, honestly, do some really believe that God has a plan for us, but that plan's success is completely determined by us?

Is God's plan for us perfect and absolute? Obviously not, if we can "freely" choose to opt out at any given time.

Does scripture even say that God gave man free will? Or is that a man created idea? Oh, but we were created in the image of God, and God has free will therefore we do too. That's awesome! If that were the case, wouldn't we be all powerful and all knowing as well since we ARE created in the image of God right? I can't wait to create my own universe! Anybody have the instruction manual?

For the record, I am a seeker of the truth who is increasingly leaning towards Calvinism. I believe we have the ability to make choices. The question is..."Are my choices free?" The apostles "chose" to follow Jesus. But was that according to their "free" will? Or did God chose the twelve to choose to follow Jesus?

My eyes have officially gone cross-eyed due to thought overload. I mean no offense in my comments so apologies in advance just in case.

Did Peter deny Christ three times because he wanted/chose to, or was it already a piece of a continuum of plan specifically for Peter? Christ told Peter he would do it despite his protest and vehement disagreement. However, it happened.

So, how do you think someone like Peter feels about it, who loves Christ but did something like denying him? For someone who loves God this becomes a literal HELL situation - to feel like every single act you do (good or bad) is already planned out and determined, and there is nothing you can do about it. How hopeless is that?

Of course if you believe in Christ you will be saved (so they say,) but Peter believed... how many more like him believe, sin and then fall? How many do not have the "legacy" that Peter, Job, Daniel, David, etc. have?

I am not trying to argue or offend anyone either, but this bothers me a great deal. I am sure it bothers a lot more people. There is an underline futility in one's life when one finds out that it is all a program.

It wouldn't matter how bad I wanted to, say intentionally crash my car, because it is either written that I will, or I wont. Every single facet of our lives are either determined or undetermined, but the fact that ONE observes our past, present, and future means that it is already determined. Think Schrodinger's cat.

Rightglory · Jan 25, 2010

Basis Vectors,

God may not have forced Adam to sin, but it was planned as there would be no need for Jesus to be the savior. So what about this?

It was planned on God's foreknowledge. It was not planned by decree. A huge difference which is what many are failing to recognize. There is absolutely no need for God to decree something in order to know.

Basis_Vectors · Jan 25, 2010

Rightglory said:
Basis Vectors,

It was planned on God's foreknowledge. It was not planned by decree. A huge difference which is what many are failing to recognize. There is absolutely no need for God to decree something in order to know.

So you are saying that because something is observed (foreknown) doesn't mean it is/will happen? "The hearts of men" can be changed in other words?

I am more worried about what is decreed by God, and how that plays into our free will, or lack there of.

randall jones · Jan 25, 2010

Rightglory said:
It was planned on God's foreknowledge. It was not planned by decree. A huge difference which is what many are failing to recognize. There is absolutely no need for God to decree something in order to know.

Perhaps God knows something because He decreed it?

Can we please define "foreknowledge?"

God looks into the future and sees what man will do. He then goes into the present or past and acts on his foreknowledge?

Am I correct in that understanding? If so, when God looks into the future and sees what man will do, does God not also see what He Himself has set into motion already? Why look at what man will do to determine His action instead of looking into what He Himself will do? Am I making any sense at all?

For example:
1. God looks into the future and sees that Job will endure Satan's temptations without fail.
2. With that "foreknowledge," God then goes back to Satan and says, "Sure, buddy go for it!"

But God being outside of space and time, upon "looking" into the future would have already seen that He Himself permitted Satan, right?

At the moment its seems more accurate for me, that "foreknowledge" for God is knowing what the future holds, not because He "looks" into the future, but rather God knows what the future holds because He has already planned it.

nobdysfool · Jan 25, 2010

Epicurus, please do not post the same thing over multiple threads, it's considered spamming the threads.

thank you

Thekla · Jan 25, 2010

cygnusx1 said:
same goes for every Orthodox believer .

so why make the statement at all

cygnusx1 · Jan 25, 2010

Thekla said:
so why make the statement at all

which one ?

randall jones · Jan 25, 2010

Basis_Vectors said:
Did Peter deny Christ three times because he wanted/chose to, or was it already a piece of a continuum of plan specifically for Peter? Christ told Peter he would do it despite his protest and vehement disagreement. However, it happened.

So, how do you think someone like Peter feels about it, who loves Christ but did something like denying him? For someone who loves God this becomes a literal HELL situation - to feel like every single act you do (good or bad) is already planned out and determined, and there is nothing you can do about it. How hopeless is that?

Of course if you believe in Christ you will be saved (so they say,) but Peter believed... how many more like him believe, sin and then fall? How many do not have the "legacy" that Peter, Job, Daniel, David, etc. have?

I am not trying to argue or offend anyone either, but this bothers me a great deal. I am sure it bothers a lot more people. There is an underline futility in one's life when one finds out that it is all a program.

It wouldn't matter how bad I wanted to, say intentionally crash my car, because it is either written that I will, or I wont. Every single facet of our lives are either determined or undetermined, but the fact that ONE observes our past, present, and future means that it is already determined. Think Schrodinger's cat.

It most definitely bothers people. Why? Because it makes us feel like we have no control over anything, and that God is in control of EVERYTHING. Which is what free will promotes...man's ability to control their lives. Why such emphasis on a man-centered free will?

I wonder, do free willers believe they are saved because of they're own free will? If so, then essentially one's salvation is determined by that person and all credit is given to that person for "choosing" to be saved. That doesn't sound accurate to me.

The argument usually given by free willers is that a loving God wouldn't predestine some to go to hell and predestine some to heaven. Yet they never bring up that the same loving God already destined all of humankind to hell because of Adam's sin. I don't understand how that argument is ignored by free willers at all.

The very fact that God predestines even some to go to heaven is enough evidence of a loving God for me.

Philothei · Jan 25, 2010

randall jones said:
It most definitely bothers people. Why? Because it makes us feel like we have no control over anything, and that God is in control of EVERYTHING. Which is what free will promotes...man's ability to control their lives. Why such emphasis on a man-centered free will?

Click to expand...

it has nothing to do with ability to control my life...It has to do with taking responsibility of my actions if that is against God's wll. It is much harder if we have a will that we have to answer for making wrong ones. We have to keep ourselves in check... I think the predestination one is the lazy man's way to try to avoid taking responsibility for what we decide to do even if it is moraly bad we atribute that to God and how He is the one that sends us to damnation...When we are doing bad we are damned and God is responsible and when we do good then God is responsible so we do not have to worry about things. How strange as God never would make our decision for us to harm us.....

I wonder, do free willers believe they are saved because of they're own free will? If so, then essentially one's salvation is determined by that person and all credit is given to that person for "choosing" to be saved. That doesn't sound accurate to me.

Click to expand...

Nope your free will never saves you but doing God's will in your life and following Christ does. Our salvation is depended on God's grace not our choice to follow Him. God is always there waiting for us we just have to accept that Grace in order to be saved. How can God give Grace to an unrepentant soul?

The argument usually given by free willers is that a l

oving God wouldn't predestine some to go to hell and predestine some to heaven. Yet they never bring up that the same loving God already destined all of humankind to hell because of Adam's sin. I don't understand how that argument is ignored by free willers at all.

Click to expand...

Christ said for us to willingly following Him period.
God had already forsaw the fall so His divine economy was for humanity and all fallen nature to be saved since its inception. God's providence would never let his creation to be lost. Because it says that he so loved the world that he sent down his Only Son. This does not sound like a "evil" God for in his mercy He does wish to save all; all those who willingfully would want to follow Him.

The very fact that God predestines even some to go to heaven is enough evidence of a loving God for me.[

Click to expand...

So if he has predestined most to go to hell does not bother you?

randall jones · Jan 25, 2010

Philothei said:
So if he has predestined most to go to hell does not bother you?

It most definitely bothers me. If it were up to me everybody would be in heaven there would be no sin, and we'd be eating ice cream all day long! Unfortunately, it's not up to me. So who am I to question what God does for his glory? (romans 9) It bothers me the same as it bothers me that God allowed the earthquake in Haiti, nazi germany, the flood, abortions legalized, etc etc etc i can go on and on and on but it's pointless to complain and question. I'm not God.

Does it bother you that God condemned all of mankind to hell because of one man's sin? Is that not as bad as God predestining some to heaven and some to hell? I would think it's worse.

randall jones · Jan 25, 2010

Philothei said:
Nope your free will never saves you but doing God's will in your life and following Christ does. Our salvation is depended on God's grace not our choice to follow Him. God is always there waiting for us we just have to accept that Grace in order to be saved. How can God give Grace to an unrepentant soul?

I'm confused...you say that our salvation is dependent on God's grace and not our choice to follow him. I agree. But then you say we just have to accept that Grace in order to be saved??? So out of your free will you accepted the Grace in order to be saved? How is that not the same as saving yourself when the salvation is determined by you choosing to accept or not?

Philothei · Jan 25, 2010

Okay. We have free will to accept Christ's message and believe in Christ. It is not until we accept him that our sins are forgiven for Christ's says "you are forgiven" thus we are saved through Him. We do not forgive our sins by ourselves neither we can attain Grace by ourselves it is in HIM that we are given Grace to be forgiven. Does this makes sense?
We follow HIM but His Grace is His to give not ours. The minute we accept HIM and follow Him we are given Grace

Philothei · Jan 25, 2010

There cannot be saved without Christ. We believe in Him and when we sin we repent we are forgiven by Him and he forgive us through His grace.What excatly is that you do not understand?

Philothei · Jan 25, 2010

randall jones said:
It most definitely bothers me. If it were up to me everybody would be in heaven there would be no sin, and we'd be eating ice cream all day long! Unfortunately, it's not up to me. So who am I to question what God does for his glory? (romans 9) It bothers me the same as it bothers me that God allowed the earthquake in Haiti, nazi germany, the flood, abortions legalized, etc etc etc i can go on and on and on but it's pointless to complain and question. I'm not God.

Does it bother you that God condemned all of mankind to hell because of one man's sin? Is that not as bad as God predestining some to heaven and some to hell? I would think it's worse.

You can explain God but in a way you have put Him into a place that yes... it does not make too much sense. God is ever loving, God is all knowing and God is mercyful How can you know in advance that he calls some and he does not call all?
if you cannot answer any of these questions you are asking I think it would be indeed worthwhile to review who God is as revealed by Jesus Christ and put Him in that perspective.

Christ came to reveal God? Did he not?
Christ told us God is mercyful did he not?
Christ said the greatest commandment is love did he not?
Christ gave us many commandments to follow did he not?
Christ told us how to pray....the Lord's prayer
Christ taught us that salvation is for all

I wonder why he would do all this and die for us if it was a call to the already predestined? Sounds pointless and meaningless to me to have gone through such length for just saving few.... While punishing many.

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

He who comes to Him... and he who believes... in Him . To do this implies free will... not predestination.

40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

JOhn 6: 35-40
Many quote the verses above but neglect to quote also these ones...

Rightglory · Jan 25, 2010

randall jones,

Does it bother you that God condemned all of mankind to hell because of one man's sin? Is that not as bad as God predestining some to heaven and some to hell? I would think it's worse.

Where in the Bible does it say God condemned all of mankind to hell? Also, you seem to be saying there are two hells. One for mankind generally, then the option, of predestination of either appointing to heaven or hell?

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