Death

Received said:

I do, given that, well, it's just not "experiencable" -- nothingness, that is.

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If there is no experiencer, there is no context for experience. "Nothingness" cannot then be an unexperiencable experience. I suspect that some people may get caught up in trying to imagine such a blatant contradiction, which must seem like a mystery, when it really is a subtle logic error.

Wisdom is found in not making the attempt. We all have our own "universe" of experiencer and experience, but this universe is bounded. As with any bounded universe, there is nothing "outside" of the universe, including an "outside". That is undefined, not "nothingness". It may feel like a mystery with a hidden answer to ask oneself the question: "what is outside of the totality of existence?", but it is a mistake to try. The only answer is mu, which is to say that the question is faulty and should be "unasked".

I just don't think a life has purpose or meaning in the sense that it seems unending and everflowing, a sort of given a person has after he starts perceiving things in the right way.

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Are you getting at the idea that the journeys may matter to some extent in their own right, not just the destinations? I think that there is truth to such a concept.

I think purpose is a continual affair -- like the apostle Paul said, "I die daily," so too in a similar sense with purpose: we live lives of purpose daily (or not).

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Yes, certainly.

What does it take to live a life of purpose? Not just some grand sense about things (although that helps immensely), but a continual fulfilling of our possibilities.

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Yep. We do seem to be on the same page.

And it seems like death is something I fear in my life when my meanings aren't fulfilled -- when they're just possibilities, when I don't make the movement of faith (and it seems like the moment I decide not to take this movement, what was originally hope becomes despair -- despair over the possibility of my fulfilling these possibilities).

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That's a good insight about hope turning to despair when one gives up the challenge of fulfilling one's purpose. I will remember that for my own spiritual context.

It seems like fear of death isn't just the fear of physical nonexistence, but rather the fear that our possibilities aren't fulfilled -- a sort of existential regret that we didn't plant the seeds of possibility that we were given.

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We seem to be in agreement, even despite our different terminology and perspectives.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Ana the Ist said:

If I'm not mistaken, you have that backwards.

Not what is worth dying for, but what is worth living for?

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In a textbook that we used for a college philosophy class the author's analysis after the Plato dialogue Crito was "what is worth dying for?".

Eudaimonist said:

It is fashionable for some people to say that. If death is personal nonexistence, I don't see that as a mystery in the slightest.


Not to me. It's really very simple. If my life has purpose (which it does), and if its purpose is self-contained, that is, contained within my life, that means that my life is an end-in-itself. It isn't just a necessary but unimportant preliminary to something that follows.

So, for me, I accept my finite nature, and inevitable death, because death is no threat to my meaning in life. My purpose is contained within my life, and it is completed simply by living. I do not long for death, but I do accept it.

If my life did not have purpose, I would feel that something was missing. Death would terrify me because I would feel that it would never be complete.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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Very well said!!!

This whole thing is based on an individuals psychological state. As someone who participated in sports at a high level through college, I would use this analogy:

When you participate in a sporting event and you know you have given it everything you have, you are at much more peace with the outcome - win or lose. When you realize you left something on the table (didn't give it your best effort), you will be uneasy and this will haunt you, as you understand you could have done better and wonder if the outcome could have been different.

Have yall accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Maybe I have got biology all wrong, but it seems to me that a person starts dying the moment he/she is born (or maybe the moment he/she is conceived).

When that process, dying, is about to be completed and you feel like it has been for good, you embrace its completion. If you feel like it has not been for good, then you do not want it to be completed.

Again, what is worth dying for?

Received said:

First of all, "death" is a complete mystery. The very term signifies something that we by definition can't experience, given that we won't be around to experience it, and this "it" isn't even a thing, but pure negation.

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I wouldn´t call that a mystery any more than I would call "what´s in the mirror when noone looks in it?" a mystery.

But it's always been fascinating to me how people who really live their lives, who have a sense of purpose, and more particularly in the moment are living lives of purpose (as opposed to someone who dies who did meaningful things twenty years ago), are much more willing to die than people who don't. Nietzsche had said that all ripe things long to die, and I can't help but agree.

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I embrace the fact that my existence is finite. Beyond the moment of dieing there´s nothing I can relate to or that relates to me. IOW: "death" is a pointless abstraction.

So what is it about living your life that makes you ready to die, and conversely not living your life that makes you fear death? This to me a pretty big mystery.

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When going to the theater I´m not fearing the end of the play, either. Rather, the finiteness of the play is adding up to its attraction (if not even being a prerequisite for it).
It´s more of a mystery why people suddenly start trying to try to look at things under the abstraction of infinity (actually, a non-concept just like death, if you ask me).

LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:

Maybe I have got biology all wrong, but it seems to me that a person starts dying the moment he/she is born (or maybe the moment he/she is conceived).

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You do have biology wrong. That idea is an old Stoic spiritual exercise designed to change one's perspective on life and death. Philosophy was once considered "preparation for death". It shouldn't be taken as an accurate statement of biology.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Received said:

I just mean that meaning doesn't seem to be something we suddenly awaken to and then have so long as we're in the right state of awareness. Awareness of meaning is one part of the process, but unless we take this meaning and engage with it -- live it out -- it's no good.

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Good insight.


eudaimonia,

Mark

LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:

In a textbook that we used for a college philosophy class the author's analysis after the Plato dialogue Crito was "what is worth dying for?".

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My mistake. I thought you were trying to recall a different quote.