Dear Atheists...

Rajni · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
Hahahahahahaha.

In the case that my God does not exist, then why not just pursue material sense gratification at others' expense?

Humans are pleasure seeking and if we are barred the Highest PLEASURE of the heart.... which is God (KREESHNA),,,,, then so-called happiness involves abusing and mistreating others. That is the end result.

WonderBeat said:
That is because most people are camels and asses instead of lions and children.

WonderBeat, you haven't gotten caught up in the ISKCON cult (which is a bit different from straight-up Hinduism), have you? Just curious, since a cultic (or cultish) environment tends to encourage the demonization of "outsiders" like that.

While I have come to an appreciation of God in the Krishnaic form as well, I don't consider myself Hindu (found out early on I'd be just as much of a heretic in Hinduism as I was in Christianity ). At any rate, my relationship with the Lord (whether His form ultimately be that of Krishna or the Flying Spaghetti Monster ) has actually steered me away from the idea that people are "camels and asses". It has also taught me that the value of showing love towards others is not necessarily contingent upon one's estimation of a Divine Force.

Rajni · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
Look at it this way pal, does empathy have any value when love is subtracted from it?

Since God is Love, and permeates everything, there's no such thing as empathy (or anything else) being subtracted from Him. His power works through everyone, regardless of creed or lack thereof. Just my view, though.

WonderBeat · Nov 21, 2012

Paradoxum said:
Is love and compassion through love also petty?

No, it is not petty. But when it has a materialistic basis, then it tends to go to shreds and doesn't last. Thus, it has no "real" value. Because only what is eternal can have real value.

Paradoxum said:
Why is morality self-centred?

Because it is always "I am right!" "I am right!" Never, God sayeth so, not I, but Krishna....

Paradoxum said:
Why are faith, devotion and surrender good?

Faith destroys the materialistic mind. Devotion brings one closer to the truth. Surrender allows one to taste that wonderful truth: Krsna, Hari....

WonderBeat · Nov 21, 2012

chaela said:
WonderBeat, you haven't gotten caught up in the ISKCON cult (which is a bit different from straight-up Hinduism), have you? Just curious, since a cultic (or cultish) environment tends to encourage the demonization of "outsiders" like that.

I don't care if it's called a "cult." Modern society is a cult, for all I care.

chaela said:
While I have come to an appreciation of God in the Krishnaic form as well, I don't consider myself Hindu (found out early on I'd be just as much of a heretic in Hinduism as I was in Christianity ). At any rate, my relationship with the Lord (whether His form ultimately be that of Krishna or the Flying Spaghetti Monster ) has actually steered me away from the idea that people are "camels and asses". It has also taught me that the value of showing love towards others is not necessarily contingent upon one's estimation of a Divine Force.

People are camels and asses by designation. I am not putting anyone down, just demonstrating the proper designation of people. I myself am hardly a sudra.

Skavau · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
No, it is not petty. But when it has a materialistic basis, then it tends to go to shreds and doesn't last. Thus, it has no "real" value. Because only what is eternal can have real value.

What constitutes love and compassion for a materialistic basis?

Because it is always "I am right!" "I am right!" Never, God sayeth so, not I, but Krishna....

Why is having a strong moral conviction equivalent to gesticulating that "I am right"?

Faith destroys the materialistic mind. Devotion brings one closer to the truth. Surrender allows one to taste that wonderful truth: Krsna, Hari....

This is white noise to me.

Davian · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
No, it is not petty. But when it has a materialistic basis, then it tends to go to shreds and doesn't last. Thus, it has no "real" value. Because only what is eternal can have real value.

Because it is always "I am right!" "I am right!" Never, God sayeth so, not I, but Krishna....

Faith destroys the materialistic mind. Devotion brings one closer to the truth. Surrender allows one to taste that wonderful truth: Krsna, Hari....

Sounds more like 'religion' than 'truth'. Chaff, to use your words.

Rajni · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
I don't care if it's called a "cult." Modern society is a cult, for all I care.

You might be interested in doing some research into the organization. It has seen its share of serious scandal.

People are camels and asses by designation.

Actually, that's not quite correct. People are of the Hominidae family, camels are of the Camelidae family, and asses are of the Equidae family.

Likely you follow the teachings of Prabhupada, who has also been known to promote the equally incorrect racist and misogynistic views.

I am not putting anyone down, just demonstrating the proper designation of people.

"Proper" according to your cult's leader, correct?

I myself am hardly a sudra.

Wow, even got the caste thing down pat, huh? (For those who aren't aware, a "sudra" is a member of the lowest Hindu caste, or worker caste).

WonderBeat · Nov 21, 2012

chaela said:
You might be interested in doing some research into the organization. It has seen its share of serious scandal.

I love it. Warts and all.

Actually, that's not quite correct. People are of the Hominidae family, camels are of the Camelidae family, and asses are of the Equidae family. [/QUOTE]

Obviously I'm speaking figuratively. See Nietzsche's the camel, the lion and the child.

Likely you follow the teachings of Prabhupada, who has also been known to promote the equally incorrect racist and misogynistic views.[/QUOTE]

Guru is infallible in my eyes. Achyutam. We can always reinterpret difficult verses.

"Proper" according to your cult's leader, correct?[/QUOTE]

Woohoo, I'm a cultist, yessir...

Wow, even got the caste thing down pat, huh? (For those who aren't aware, a "sudra" is a member of the lowest Hindu caste, or worker caste). [/QUOTE]

VARNA.

Gottservant · Nov 21, 2012

Krishna be the judge of these people, in the Name of Wonderbeat.

They have not believed Heaven, therefore they do not laugh.

They have not believed Heaven on Earth, therefore they have no humour.

They have not believed Heaven from Hell, therefore the Devil wants their blood.

Paradoxum · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
No, it is not petty. But when it has a materialistic basis, then it tends to go to shreds and doesn't last. Thus, it has no "real" value. Because only what is eternal can have real value.

I'm not sure what you mean? Love doesn't last? Why would you think you are a more loving person than me just because you believe in.... whatever you believe in?

What is eternal, and how do you know?

Because it is always "I am right!" "I am right!" Never, God sayeth so, not I, but Krishna....

It isn't about me being right. It is about having compassion for people and trying to convince others to as well so that others aren't oppressed. The primary point is to help others, not to brag about being right.

You may say God says so, but that is still your opinion on what God says.Also it is your God, so it could still be claimed that you can brag because it is your God.

Faith destroys the materialistic mind. Devotion brings one closer to the truth. Surrender allows one to taste that wonderful truth: Krsna, Hari....

Well if there is no God then faith may make you believe, but it would be false belief. Belief isn't good if it is false. Devotion to what brings one closer to truth? Devotion to science, reason, and morality will. And I'm not sure what point you are making about surrender.

WonderBeat · Nov 21, 2012

Gottservant said:
Krishna be the judge of these people, in the Name of Wonderbeat.

Actually, Krishna does not judge us. He only deals with us through Mercy.

Om Jai Shree Krishna Hare - YouTube

variant · Nov 21, 2012

WonderBeat said:
It is your love of morality that sends you to Hells and the Animal Kingdoms. This is because you think that by being moral without God you are perfecting your lives and those around, but what you are really doing is becoming self-centered ("self-righteous" as the Christians say) and thinking that morality revolves around such petty things as "kindness" or "empathy." Notwithstanding these lies, you cannot encompass true morality because for that you need some measure at least of faith, devotion, and surrender (not to mention humility in the light of these great things).

If morality is not about how we act towards each other and why then it is little better than idolatry.

The difference between my sense of morality that is inherently about how I fit in the world and yours is that you have adopted someone else's ideas about an external God figure that frees you from the need to be thoughtful about your moral decision making.

ToddNotTodd · Nov 21, 2012

Gottservant said:
Krishna be the judge of these people, in the Name of Wonderbeat.

They have not believed Heaven, therefore they do not laugh.

They have not believed Heaven on Earth, therefore they have no humour.

They have not believed Heaven from Hell, therefore the Devil wants their blood.

This entire thread is freaking me out.

Skavau · Nov 21, 2012

ToddNotTodd said:
This entire thread is freaking me out.

Your mood "Amazed" made that.

Apparently we're humourless and can't laugh. This of course from the master of comedy "Gottservant".

Rajni · Nov 21, 2012

ToddNotTodd said:
This entire thread is freaking me out.

This is the 2nd thread I've come across in as many days that's been somewhat surreal ... I think there's something in the water.

Gadarene · Nov 21, 2012

ToddNotTodd said:
This entire thread is freaking me out.

This entire thread is hilarious.

I knew checking my forum posts was the right thing to do when I woke up.

variant · Nov 21, 2012

chaela said:
This is the 2nd thread I've come across in as many days that's been somewhat surreal ... I think there's something in the water.

You've come across a naked look at the human condition.

Be afraid, it's catchy.

madaz · Nov 22, 2012

WonderBeat said:
It is your love of morality that sends you to Hells and the Animal Kingdoms.

So if I hated morality that would send me somewhere else?

WonderBeat said:
This is because you think that by being moral without God you are perfecting your lives and those around, but what you are really doing is becoming self-centered ("self-righteous" as the Christians say) and thinking that morality revolves around such petty things as "kindness" or "empathy."

Kindness and empathy are far from petty and morality exists without a deity or a belief in a deity.

WonderBeat said:
Notwithstanding these lies, you cannot encompass true morality because for that you need some measure at least of faith, devotion, and surrender (not to mention humility in the light of these great things).

Your religion is very wrong if it deludes you somehow in to believing that you have morality and Atheists do not.

WonderBeat said:
That is my thought. Hope it was constructive.

Your thoughts are condescending, arrogant and ignorant. Leave your religion if this is the type of person your religion creates.

Eudaimonist · Nov 22, 2012

WonderBeat said:
Because only what is eternal can have real value.

I can't think of a single reason to conclude this. For finite beings, finite values have real value.

Because it is always "I am right!" "I am right!" Never, God sayeth so, not I, but Krishna....

It seems to me that morality more often reflects an acceptance of the facts of reality. For instance, recognizing the existence of human needs and the sort of actions that satisfy those needs.

What you describe just seems like a dodge -- a way of claiming greater authority for one's own views by claiming that God naturally thinks the exact same way. It's just like shouting "I am right!", but pretending otherwise.

That is all that one can expect when who says something matters more than what the facts are. "I am right!" "God is right!" "I speak for God!" "God speaks through me!" It's all the same problem.

Faith destroys the materialistic mind.

Yes, faith destroys minds. We agree on that point.

eudaimonia,

Mark

WonderBeat · Nov 22, 2012

Eudaimonist said:
Yes, faith destroys minds. We agree on that point.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Excellent.

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