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Dealing with Sola Scriptura

JoabAnias

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I do not see how this invalidates God's words as spoke through the aposltes written down and then finally cannonized hundreds of years later.

Chances are the Bible your reading is incomplete or spuriously translated.

Septuagint and Catholic Bible

The Septuagint (which comes from the Latin for 70, "septuaginta") was a translation of the Hebrew Books of the Old Testament into Greek, by 70 Jewish scholars.

The translation became necessary when it was found that most of the Israelites in exile, especially as a result of the Babylonian Captivity of 586-536 B.C., did not know Hebrew, but wanted to read the sacred books.

The work was done in Alexandria, Egypt, sometime between 250 B.C. and 100 B.C.. This translation was warmly welcomed by Jews outside Palestine, as was read by many Gentiles. Consequently, many Gentiles were familiar with the important ideas in the Old Testament and were thus prepared to hear and accept the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In the early Church no list of inspired books had been accepted or approved.

Christ, and then the Apostles, did not give us a list of books which were inspired. However, the Septuagint was extremely influential among Jews living outside Palestine (and some inside Palestine), and was the sacred writings adopted by the early Greek-speaking Christians.

Throughout the New Testament there are more than 300 direct quotations or paraphrases from the Septuagint Bible out of some 350 Old Testament references. Scholars regard this as an indication that the Catholic Christian writers of the Apostolic Era had adopted the Septuagint as their own.

The Christians took the Septuagint over so completely that the Jews decided to adopt their own version. This was done about 90 A.D..

The Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), and Pope Innocent I (405) listed the 46 books of the Septuagint as inspired. The Catholic, Greek, Russian and other Orthodox Old Testaments are based on the Septuagint.

Vulgate

The Vulgate is the Latin version of the Bible prepared by St. Jerome (382-404), at the request of Pope St. Damasus I.

He translated the Old Testament directly from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and revised the existing Latin text of the New Testament.

"Vulgate" means "common" or "popular", since Latin was the popular language in Europe at the time. This translation was done in a language they could understand. Very few knew how to read.

The Vulgate was used through the centuries and was declared the official Latin text of the Bible for Catholics by the Council of Trent (1545-63).

It was from the Vulgate that almost all English Catholic translations were made until the middle of the 20th century, when scholars began to use original sources.

It remained the official Latin text of the Bible for the Catholic Church until Pope John Paul II replaced it with the New Vulgate in 1979.

Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. This belief is based on their acceptance of the fact that the Catholic Church had the authority to declare which books were inspired and should be included in the list of sacred books or "Canon", and which should not be included.

The Catholic Church knew it had this authority and guidance because:

1. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth" (John 14:16-17)

2. "However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, as come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13)

3. "... I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20)

4. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:19)

5. "... it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" (Ephesians 3:5)

6. "... the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)

For more than 1500 years the Catholic Church has accepted and taught that these 73 books of the Bible are inspired and make up the list of sacred books.

Jesus gave His Apostles and Church the gift of the Holy Spirit when He said. "... 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22).

Jesus also said, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).

It is impossible that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, would lead the Church in an error for 1900 years. Such a promise was made to the Church alone.

Martin Luther decided to reject that and to accept the Hebrew Bible since it did not have the 2nd Book of Maccabees which says, "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sin." (2 Maccabees 12:46 NAB).

Luther did not agree with praying for the dead. He did not accept seven books of the Old Testament, and also did not accept these New Testament books: Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John, James, Jude, 2 Peter and Revelation. These books contained teachings which did not agree with his teaching.

By the year 1700, however, Lutheran scholars had restored these books to the New Testament. We must remember that Jesus promised that His Spirit would be with His Church (John 14:11-12) and that the Spirit of Truth would guide the Church into all truth (John 16:13). Paul said, "... which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

So the Spirit of Truth guides the Church in all truth, not an individual person.









-Writings Which the Catholic Church decided to be the "Canon" of Scripture of the New Testament:

Bolded Writings which the Catholic Church decided to be the "Canon" of Scripture of the New Testament

+ Writings (existing today) which the Church decided would NOT be included in the "Canon"

* Writings (no longer in existence) which the Church decided would NOT be included in the "Canon"

GOSPELS

*Andrew
*Apelles
*Twelve Apostles
*Barnabas
*Bartholomew
*Basilides
+Birth of Mary
*Cerinthus
*Eyptians
*Ebionites
*Encratites
*Eve
*Hebrews
*Hesychius
+Infancy of Jesus Christ
+Infancy (by Thomas)
John
*Jude
*Judas Iscariot
+Lost Gospel of Peter
Luke
*Marcion
Mark
Matthew
*Matthias
*Mernthus
*Nazarenes
+Nicodemus
*Perfection
*Peter
+Philip
+The Protevangelion
*Sythianus
*Titan
*Thaddaeus
+Thomas
+Truth
* Valentinus

REVELATION

*Cerinthus
John
*Paul
*Peter
*Philip
*Stephen
*Thomas


EPISTLES

+Barnabas
*Christ (to Peter & Paul)
*Christ (produced by the Manichees)
+Clement to the Corinthians (1)
+Clement to the Corinthians (2)
Hebrews
+Herod and Pilate
+Igantius to the Ephesians
+Igantius to the Magnesians
+Igantius to the Trallians
+Igantius to the Romans
+Igantius to the Philadelphians
+Igantius to the Smyrnaeans
+Igantius to the Polycarp
James
+Jesus and Abgarus
John (1)
John (2)
John (3)
Jude
+Paul to the Laodicians
+Paul and the Seneca
Paul to Romans
Paul to the Corinthians (1)
Paul to the Corinthians (2)
Paul to the Galatians
Paul to the Ephesians
Paul to the Philippians
Paul to the Colossians
Paul to the Thessalonians (1)
Paul to the Thessalonians (2)
Paul to Timothy (1)
Paul to Timothy (2)
Paul to Titus
Paul to Philemon
Peter (1)
Peter (2)
+Polycarp to the Philippians
*Themison (the Montanist)

ACTS

*Andrew
*Apostles (by Leucius)
*Apostles (by Lentitus)
*Apostles (by Leontius)
*Apostles (by Leuthon)
Apostles (by Luke)
*Apostles (used by the Ebonites)
*Apostles (used by Manichees)
*Apostles (used by Seleucus)
*John
*Paul
*Paul and Thecla
*Peter
*Philip
*Pilate
*Thomas


BOOKS BY

*Andrew
*Christ
*The Helkesaites
+Hermas (His Visions 1)
+Hermas (His Commands 2)
+Hermas (His Similitudes 3)
*James
*John
*Lentitius
*Matthew
*Matthias
*Paul
*Thomas


OTHER

+Apostles' Creed
+The Didache
*The Doctrine of Peter
*The Judgement of Peter
*The Preaching of Paul (and Peter)
*The Preaching of Peter
*The Traditions of Matthias
 
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G-Com

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I do not see how this invalidates God's words as spoke through the aposltes written down and then finally cannonized hundreds of years later.
I don't know what you're talking about. To say that what we call "the Bible" came from the Catholic Church is an historical fact. You can call it "God's Word" if you like since is was compiled from selected writings chosen from hundreds of existing writings by Catholic Church officials and theologians in 382 A.D. under the watchful eye of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, and codified into a compact volume.

This Bible included the Septuagint, which is the Koine Greek translation of far older Hebrew and Aramaic writings — what we call the Old Testament; and the New Testament: the four Gospels, Acts (widely believed to have been written by the same author as Luke), thirteen Pauline Epistles, eight "general" Epistles, and an apocalyptic prophecy.

The Catholic Church came from Christ and Holy Scripture came from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.
 
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CruciFixed

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So does Martin and John share the same belief about Sola Fide?

LOL I meant do not does


I'm not refuting Catholicism. I believe in the Catholic Church and want to convert. I was just wondering so that I have something to say when people tell me Roman Catholicism is wrong.

I agree and disagree with you. I will explain in my other thread : )

You started a new thread?
 
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Ave Maria

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I love this verse when dealing with those who subscribe to sola scriptura:

(2Th 2:15 RSV) So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

 
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G-Com

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I love this verse when dealing with those who subscribe to sola scriptura:

(2Th 2:15 RSV) So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Yup. I forgot to include that.
 
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G-Com

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I'm not refuting Catholicism. I believe in the Catholic Church and want to convert. I was just wondering so that I have something to say when people tell me Roman Catholicism is wrong.
May I ask you this: why do you feel the need to defend your decisions to others? Do they have authority over you?
 
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J

JacksLadder

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Just to muddy the waters a bit Saint Melito of Sardis (died c.180)the bishop of Sardis, Melito provides us with what is possibly the earliest known Christian canon of the Old Testament (accounting for the uncertainty with regards to the precise date of the Muratorian fragment and not counting the Bryennios List) having traveled to Palestine (probably the library at Caesarea Maritima) seeking to acquire accurate information in this regard. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that "Melito's Canon consists exclusively of the protocanonicals minus Esther". Lamentations and Nehemiah are not listed, but the former is thought to be included with Jeremiah, and Nehemiah with Ezra. Melito's list almost fully corresponds to the Jewish and Protestant canon, and does not include additional books which are found in the Greek Septuagint,[1] though it is thought by many to include the Book of Wisdom, which is part of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Deuterocanon, but which others dispute.[2]
 
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CruciFixed

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May I ask you this: why do you feel the need to defend your decisions to others? Do they have authority over you?
Nope but most of my family/friends etc are Protestant and I feel embarrassed (Cuz I feel stupid) when people put me on the spot. If I'm more prepared maybe I'll have something to say....
 
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G-Com

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Nope but most of my family/friends etc are Protestant and I feel embarrassed (Cuz I feel stupid) when people put me on the spot. If I'm more prepared maybe I'll have something to say....
My mom (of liberal nominal Protestant background) was totally opposed to me converting, too. But you're going about things wrong. I didn't try to justify or rationalize my decision for her benefit and I would advise you to take that attitude with your family and friends.

I said, "Mom, I love you, but this is the decision I've made to save my soul. If you love me, you've got to accept this."

While she didn't agree with my choice of faith, she's accepted my choice.

I would also tell them that if they're interested, they should speak to someone more learned. Don't feel foolish about lacking the words and the knowledge. Knowledge will come in time. Just tell them that you believe that the Catholic Church is the church Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16:18 and are following your heart.
 
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G-Com

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But was Melito following James and 2 Peter's edicts barring private interpretation?
 
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shinbits

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this is a very good post.
 
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G-Com

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So are Catholics barred from reading the Bible then?
If Melito of Sardis lived after the books of the Bible were written and his bible lacked the books decided upon at the Council of Rome in 382, then his bible was clearly rejected because it lacked Esther.





If so why sell Catholic Bibles?
Because the Catholic Bible has been the one in use for 1,600 years.
 
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J

JacksLadder

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Because the Catholic Bible has been the one in use for 1,600 years.


But from what you are telling me Catholics are not suppose to read the Bible. So why have one if you are not suppose to test your priests words by it?

I still see no argument against Sola Scriptura, Since it appears Catholic traditions are suppose to be based on what was reveled in scripture(what we have since no one today was around for first hand accounts) written/written oral tradition aka Scriptures is all you have left.Unless are there cases where the Pope could make new scripture?

Maybe this whole Catholic way of thinking is just to foreign for me.

1. I like the LXX(from what I know of it) because it includes a vast number of scriptures some higher on the chain than others but all useful. Plus being included in ancient tradition going back to the early church.

2. I think there is something to being able to connect to God with no middle man like Luther did while cutting out the on the fence apocrypha and setting it aside and going with the rock solid scripture alone instead of relying on fallible humans.

I just don't see giving up studying the Scriptures if I become Catholic. It seems I still might be able to but maybe not.
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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Catholics are not forbidden from reading the Bible; self-interpretation is forbidden. There is quite a difference. I know many Catholics who read the Bible daily, however they read it in the context and understanding as to what the Church teaches and how it is to be interpreted.
 
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G-Com

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But from what you are telling me Catholics are not suppose to read the Bible. So why have one if you are not suppose to test your priests words by it?
Of course we're supposed to read the Bible. We're bound by Scripture to avoid interpretations. In Acts 8:27-40, for instance, a eunuch was trying to read Isaiah when Philip asked him, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

The eunuch replied, "Why, how can I unless someone shows me?"





People have explained it to you: tradition and Scripture. Not Scripture alone. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "everything you need to know is in here."

By the way: how do Catholics know that the 73 books of the Bible are the right ones?
 
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NewMan99

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But from what you are telling me Catholics are not suppose to read the Bible. So why have one if you are not suppose to test your priests words by it?

As HandmaidenofGod explained, we are not forbidden to read the Bible. In fact we are even able to interpret it (after all, you should try to comprehend what you are reading - or else what is the point) - but - you mustn't put your own interpretation over and above that of the Church.

In other words, if the Church teaches that a certain passage means ABC, you cannot say that the Church is wrong and that the passage really means XYZ. We cannot interpret the Bible APART from the teachings of the Church and her Traditions.

Now...as to the whole reading the Bible thing...some people mistakenly think the Catholic Church forbids it because there are cases where the Church has forbidden the use of certain unapproved translations...usually bad translations that put heretical notions in the text. The JW Bible is an example of a Bible translation that is so bad it actually supports their false doctrines (like that Jesus was not divine and other nonsense).

But if the Church forbade reading the Bible, then it does a really bad job of it. Not only are we encouraged in many official documents from Popes etc...to read the Bible, but we also have many Bible studies in most parishes.

Additionally, the Bible is read at every Mass. We have Mass daily. The readings are rotated so that every three years almost every important passage of the Bible is read in public. You don't even have to be literate to hear the Bible read to you if you go to a Catholic Church.

In addition to that, in the liturgy itself, dozens of Bible verses are either quoted verbatim or they are paraphrased. Almost everything said in the liturgy is taken from the Bible.

Unless are there cases where the Pope could make new scripture?

No - all new Revelation ended with the last Apostle.

I just don't see giving up studying the Scriptures if I become Catholic. It seems I still might be able to but maybe not.

The good news is that as a Catholic you would be encouraged to study Scriptures - and you can even sign up for Bible Studies through your local Church.

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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G-Com

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Exactly.

Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant reformation, broke this rule.
 
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