Deacons.

eutychus · Apr 28, 2004

This probably isn't applicable to most, but I know it is a growing problem in Southern Baptist churches. Deacons have been elevated to being just below elders, yet elders are non-existent. Deacons, who in Scripture were instated to serve, have now become the source of wisdom in committees, meetings, and church life. They are sought after for leadership positions since they are, after all, deacons.

At least, that's how it is in my church. Anybody else have this problem of his church losing sight of the true purpose of deacons? Anybody have any clue how this can be overhauled?

blackwasp · Apr 29, 2004

eutychus said:
This probably isn't applicable to most, but I know it is a growing problem in Southern Baptist churches. Deacons have been elevated to being just below elders, yet elders are non-existent. Deacons, who in Scripture were instated to serve, have now become the source of wisdom in committees, meetings, and church life. They are sought after for leadership positions since they are, after all, deacons.

At least, that's how it is in my church. Anybody else have this problem of his church losing sight of the true purpose of deacons? Anybody have any clue how this can be overhauled?

Whoa...that is exactly the same way it is in my church...are you southern baptist?

ccunning001 · Apr 29, 2004

I am a Pastor, and we are struggling with this issue. A man (who comes from a Southern Baptist Church) wants to establish a committee to help the pastor with decisions and protect him from the people. Right now our church is set up with the Pastor being the lead elder, then the Shepards being the ministers to age related groups (they are like elders), and then ministry team leaders ministering in certain areas of the church. I say this to say the issue with most Southern Baptist Churches (I am a southern baptist) is that Pastors turn over so quickly the Decons feel they have to preserve the church. They see a pastor not as a leader, but a fellow brother in the Lord and no higher in authority than they are.

Here are some issues with that:
1. The pastor is run by a group of hobbiest (people who only really think about the church once a week or ten minutes for the meeting begins.) Most decons do not spend a tenth of the time in prayer, study, contemptation, and reflection about the church. MOst of them do not even get the flake when something goes wrong.
2. They say there are there to protect the pastor and the church, when in reality they are there to tell the pastor what to do and make sure he does it. They are the Board of the church telling the CEO what to do.
3. They have little or no responcibility in the church. We all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They will tell you they have the responcibility of running the church, but really the Pastor runs the church at the request of the Decons. When the church goes South the pastor gets fired, not the decons.

Biblically the Decons are to the servants of the church. They are to be the ones doing most of the ministry - the Pastor is to serve the role of leader of the church. He is to decide the direction of the church and make sure the members of the church are moving toward the direction. The Pastor is in charge of the Spiritual climate of the church. If the church is suffering spiritually it is because the pastor is not doing his job in prayer, bible study, and ministry.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · May 17, 2004

Just to clarify some of the roles in confusion:

Elders are to advise and oversee the direction of the church (1 Tim 5:17-20)

Deacons are truth seekers in the church (1 Tim 3:8-13)

Elders are to direct the affairs of a church, and chart is direction. They are to give their wisdom to the other leaders and are meant to be at the top of the heirarchy.

Deacons are meant to serve as helpers in seeking the truth in scripture. "They must keep hold of the deep truths of faith" (1 Tim 3:9) A job I have often seen them doing is being assigned a certain facet (faith, serving, fellowship, etc), studying it, and ensuring it is done right in the church.

Teachers are teachers, they teach scripture. They are to have a say in matters, but elders are supposed to be at the top.

Evangelists are the main spreaders of the Good News. Everyone needs to participate of course, but these should be on top of it when no one else is, able to give advice to those who are having trouble spreading the faith.

Pastors are mentioned 1 time in the entire Bible, usually associated with a teacher I believe.

All of these positions need to be filled with people who meet the Biblical qualifications. If a church lacks these, it really hurts it. Hope this clears it up!

anastasiotrey · Jun 23, 2004

Very informative post Bizzlebin. Thanks especially for the references.
This is sort of like the Catholic "line-up"

ClementofRome · Jun 25, 2004

To eutychus:

That is why a plurality of elders offering spiritual leadership and a plurality of deacons offering physical leadership is the biblical model.

To Anastasiotrey:

Bet you are bummed about the lastest announcement concerning the band, huh? Are you going to go to any of the final shows?

anastasiotrey · Jun 26, 2004

ClementofRome said:
To Anastasiotrey:

Bet you are bummed about the lastest announcement concerning the band, huh? Are you going to go to any of the final shows?

Yeah man I am, definitely. Ive come to terms with it though, I dont want them to get like the Grateful Dead did in their later years. In August I'm going to see them in Massachussetts and then New Jersey then Coventry VT

9-iron · Jul 14, 2004

A man (who comes from a Southern Baptist Church) wants to establish a committee to help the pastor with decisions and protect him from the people.

I would be very careful of this man. Even though he may be well intentioned, the enemy may have set him in there to cause you grieve. Make sure he doesn't start garnering the ear of other leaders. If someone comes to your church wanting to immediately be put in this kind of position I would have all kinds of bells & whistles going off. BE CAREFUL & BE DELIBERATE!!!!!!

I see the church to be governed by elders and the pastor being the head elder or the set man God has placed to be the primary leader of the church. He also sets the vision and ministry over the church and everyone supports that vision and adds to it.

HumbleMan · Jul 30, 2004

I guess I'm lucky that I'm in the church I am at the moment. Our pastor sets the direction of the church, with our elders offering advice. During service, especially during the Sunday night altar call, the elders will be up front offering assistance and praying with those who need it. They generally stay out of the administrative areas of the church.

Our deacons take care of the buildings, the bills, organize social events, transportation, etc. They are spiritual people, but they know that their main position is to serve the church.

When decisions concerning the whole church come up, the elders call for a meeting of all concerned men. Most times, the church is of one accord on these matters.

I've seen too many times a church will split because of it's elders and deacons. Our church split a while back because of a music minister. It had nothing to do with our relationship with Christ, and everything to do with a personality cult forming in the church.

vatuck · Aug 5, 2004

I know many churches that have busted up due to Deacons. In the current church I attend, the Deacons are only there to serve the flock. We have what we call Deacon families in which the Deacon is supposed to minister to. They don't really make the "big" decisions, although the pastor has been known to seek their opinions from time to time about an issue. Also, our Deacons rotate every three years, so the same people are not always serving as Deacons every year. Our church is very heavy on committees so as to keep one group of people from having too much power. Our pastor and his administrative assistant are always doing things through the committees so as to make sure the church cannot accuse the pastor of making all of the decisions alone. It works very well for our church, because the same people are not on every committee. Additionally, we make sure that when the committe makes a decision, they don't run with it. It goes before the church for a vote.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Aug 5, 2004

Do try to get some elders. They are probably the most vital of all the jobs, moreso if you are only missing them.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 6, 2004

I have a question:

Does the Baptist Church have an equivalent to "bishops"? For example, we have deacons also and in traditional Catholic Bibles, the words "elder" and "presbyter" are written as "priest." The Catholic "line-up" is deacon, priest, and bishop from lowest to highest authority.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Aug 6, 2004

Well, when elder is used, there are usually a couple in each church, as well as a few deacons. Elders lead the church, as well as lay on ahnds, anoint, etc. Deacons supervise specific areas, many times of management if I remember correctly. On big issues, the elders of churches would meet together with some of the elders (from a different area)that were considered wise, and they would discuss the issue at hand (see the council in Acts). Peter and James (Jesus' brother) did the talking from what we see, an apostle and and elder. Anyhow, there are also teachers and whatnot, who actually teach. There were usually a few, and two or three spoke in service. The elders were allowed to teach as well of course.

Where is bishops mentioned may I ask?

aggie03 · Aug 6, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
Where is bishops mentioned may I ask?

Bishops and elders are the exact same office

Acts 20:17-28 ASV

And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church. (18) And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time, (19) serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; (20) how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house, (21) testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (22) And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: (23) save that the Holy Spirit testifieth unto me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (24) But I hold not my life of any account as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. (25) And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, shall see my face no more. (26) Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. (27) For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God. (28) Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Paul called elders to himself, and then he calls them bishiops. Elder and bishop are two different names for the same office.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Aug 6, 2004

Ah, thank you!

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 16, 2004

The word "bishop" is used several times in the KJV. Catholic Bibles, I believe, retain this designation (I think the Greek is episkopi), while newer Protestant translations call them "overseers."

Acts 1:20- For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Philippians 1:1- Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 3:1- This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1 Peter 2:25- For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Polycarp1 · Aug 16, 2004

The Scriptures speak of those with duties in the church, other than prophets and teachers, as diakonai, episkopoi, and presbyterioi -- i.e., "helpers," "overseers," and "elders." In a few passages the latter two are seen as the same -- the elders serving as overseers.

The modern usages of deacons, bishops, and priests (the words being derived, by rather arcane etymologies, from the Greek) derive from these. It is highly debatable whether the precise modern offices are referenced in Scripture -- rather, it appears to be speaking of people called to those duties and referred to as the duty-doers of each.

MbiaJc · Aug 17, 2004

ccunning001 said:
I am a Pastor, and we are struggling with this issue. A man (who comes from a Southern Baptist Church) wants to establish a committee to help the pastor with decisions and protect him from the people. Right now our church is set up with the Pastor being the lead elder, then the Shepards being the ministers to age related groups (they are like elders), and then ministry team leaders ministering in certain areas of the church. I say this to say the issue with most Southern Baptist Churches (I am a southern baptist) is that Pastors turn over so quickly the Decons feel they have to preserve the church. They see a pastor not as a leader, but a fellow brother in the Lord and no higher in authority than they are.

Here are some issues with that:
1. The pastor is run by a group of hobbiest (people who only really think about the church once a week or ten minutes for the meeting begins.) Most decons do not spend a tenth of the time in prayer, study, contemptation, and reflection about the church. MOst of them do not even get the flake when something goes wrong.
2. They say there are there to protect the pastor and the church, when in reality they are there to tell the pastor what to do and make sure he does it. They are the Board of the church telling the CEO what to do.
3. They have little or no responcibility in the church. We all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They will tell you they have the responcibility of running the church, but really the Pastor runs the church at the request of the Decons. When the church goes South the pastor gets fired, not the decons.

Biblically the Decons are to the servants of the church. They are to be the ones doing most of the ministry - the Pastor is to serve the role of leader of the church. He is to decide the direction of the church and make sure the members of the church are moving toward the direction. The Pastor is in charge of the Spiritual climate of the church. If the church is suffering spiritually it is because the pastor is not doing his job in prayer, bible study, and ministry.

The modern day Pastor is not Biblical. The Biblical Pastor of the Church is the "Elders", plural not singular, (of the local church). A one man pastoral authority is not Biblical. There is no Spiritual Gift of just Pastor it is Pastor teacher.

If the Churches were run Biblically there would be no changing of the garde so to speak every few years(I call it getting a divorce).

The Elders and Deacons have their qualifications and duties spelled out in the Bible.

Here is the Spiritual Body of Christ, the Church.

THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF Christ

MEMBER: Of the body of Christ, the first three are given by Christ Himself and all are set in the church by GOD, each person has one or more.

Compare 1Cor. 12:28 & Ephesians 4:11

apostles
prophets
teachers (evangelist, pastor teacher) Compare 1Cor. 12:28 with Eph. 4:1 miracles
hearings (medical remedies)
helps
governments (of Latin origin, to steer) (figuratively) directorship (in the church)
diversities of tongues

OFFICE: The ability, the way the Spirit works through us (The work to be done). Each member can hold one, or more or all offices, but not likely.

Romans 12

Prophecy
ministry
teaching
exhorting
giving
ruling
mercy
love
hope
enthusiasm
hope
patience

MANIFESTATION: The way the Spirit works in us. The Spirit works in each member in one or more of these ways.

1 Corinthians. 12:1-10

wisdom
knowledge
faith (given by GOD)
healing (medical remedies)
miracles
prophecy
discerning of spirits
tongues
interpretation of tongues

Add to this lest the Elders and Deacons that should be appointed by he Church. With strict observance of the Bibical qualifications. Which actually the Elders comes under the Member Gift of Governments. No where does the Bible say the Deacons have any kind of Governing authority.

Polycarp1 · Aug 17, 2004

Mbiajc, I'd be particularly interested in knowing the foundations for the doctrine underlying your comments on polity in post #18. I presume it's from the occasional references to "elders" in the plural in the N.T., but I gather you have it rather more thoroughly spelled out than that, from the obvious convictions underlying what you wrote.

MbiaJc · Aug 21, 2004

Polycarp1 said:
Mbiajc, I'd be particularly interested in knowing the foundations for the doctrine underlying your comments on polity in post #18. I presume it's from the occasional references to "elders" in the plural in the N.T., but I gather you have it rather more thoroughly spelled out than that, from the obvious convictions underlying what you wrote.

I thought I made it pretty clear what the Bible teaches. If I didn't Paul letters to Timothy, Titus, 1Cor. and Eph. should clear it up. I am stating what the Bible teaches, not what denminations teach. For there is a big difference.

The simplest way I know to answer your question is to ask you a couple. Show me one place in the NT where there is a one man pastor. Also show me where there is a Spiritual Gift of Pastor except in the Elders of the local Church. The list in Ephesians does not list Pastor as a gift. It is Pastor teachor, not pastor and teacher.

Look at the three groops of Spiritual Gifts I posted. Paying particular attention of the way the Spirit works in us and then through us.

I hope this helps brother?

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