Davinci code, can your children read or watch?

Sophia7 · May 25, 2006

bliz said:
Didn't read the book - only saw the movie.

In the movie we get Hanks wrestling with "fully God - fully man", which is essential part of our understanding of who Jesus was while here on earth. No, I don't think He married, but if He did, it changes nothing about who He was and what His death accomplished.

Here is what the book claims about the divinity of Christ:

EARLY BELIEF IN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS OF NAZARETH

Fiction: The Da Vinci Code claims that before the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, the followers of Jesus did not consider him divine. Listen in:

"Until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by his followers as a mortal prophet...a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless. A mortal...By officially endorsing Jesus as the Son of God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity." (Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code, New York: Doubleday, 2003, p. 233)

Fact: New Testament writings (written before the Council), early Church Fathers, and deliberations of the Council itself, show clearly the belief in the divinity of Christ. Here are a few quotations from early Christians who all wrote about their belief in the divinity of Jesus before the Council of Nicaea:

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with Gods plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit." (Ignatius of AntiochA.D. 110)

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man." (Tatian the SyrianA.D. 170)

Perhaps the greatest proof of the early Christian communitys belief in the divinity of Christ are the estimated 100,000 200,000 deaths of men and women of the first centuries of Christianity who preferred death by torture to the denial of their faith. The Roman emperors Decius (249-251) and Diocletian (284 - ) persecuted Christians because they refused to worship pagan gods. In the Coliseum, the Circus Maximus, and on the streets of Rome, Christians uttered the name of Jesus as they went to their death.

Summary: Early Christians believed in the divinity of Jesus from the very beginning. Their beliefs were supported by the Gospels in which Jesus himself makes the claim (John 5:18, John 8: 58, John 20:28, and many more) and in early New Testament writers such as St. Paul (Phil 2:6) continued the oral and written tradition.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195267,00.html

Sophia7 · May 25, 2006

Athene said:
So tell me . . . .. was Mary Magdalene a prostitute?

The Bible doesn't make that clear.

Leanna · May 25, 2006

And really, him botching the historical content just made him look stupid.... since its a widely known historical thought that Jesus was already regarded as divine before the council of Nicea .... of course now that the Christians are up in arms its making the Christians look stupid too.... what a bummer.

Carri20 · May 25, 2006

What exactly is it that you consider blasphemous in the book or movie?

Everything that Sophia7 said and a lot more, I'm sure.

I think the book could have been better, but it was entertaining enough. You know this reminds me of when they had those Mohammed cartoons and the Christians said "why can't they just laugh!?" then when the joke is on the Christians in the davinci code they forget their humor.... its so one sided.... either you can laugh or you can't.

Keeping in mind the answer to the previous question and knowing that the Da Vinci code is at least 80% bs, allow me to quote from the book Exploring the Da Vinci Code:

"Are readers being convinced? A survey by Decima Research, Inc. showed that one out of three Canadians who have read the book now believes there are descendants of Jesus walking among us today. And according to pollster George Barna, 53 percent of Americans who've read the book said it had been helpful in their 'personal spiritual growth and understanding.'"

God's not laughing, Leanna. Satan is.

The most dangerous lies are those which are mixed with just the right amount of truth.

So tell me . . . .. was Mary Magdalene a prostitute?

I am well aware of the debates. What I do know is that Mary was human and therefore a sinner. I hardly think the degree or nature of her sin matters...only the fact that she was forgiven by Christ. (Note that I say forgiven, not boinked).

I really don't hold a fictional author or producers of a murder mystery film responsible for the fact that people mistakenly take their product as fact.

Yes well, about that fictional author... Did you know that in two different interviews Dan Brown answered the question of his book's historical accuracy in two completely different and contradicting ways? In one interview he said that if he were going to write The Da Vinci Code as nonfiction, he wouldn't change a thing. He stood behind the so-called "facts". In another interview he called the whole thing pure fiction. He was obviously lying at least one of those times, which combined with the book itself draws a pretty good picture of his character. Liar, deceiver, blasphemer. Whether he realizes the damage he's done or not, he has become a most effective tool of Satan.

For those of you who want to play Russian roulette with your children, expose them to this garbage at a young age and hope to God they remember which parts are truth and which are not, I can only shake my head and weep for the future.

Sophia7 · May 25, 2006

wanderingone said:
Right, and this is the discussion that books like Davinci Code, and Mary Called Magdalene (and about a dozen other books that provide a historical fiction account of Christ's life) have created in our house. What if the perpetual virginity of Mary is a myth? What if Jesus had siblings? What if Jesus had a wife? Does that change his being the Son of God, sent to redeem us from our sins? Does the trinity suddenly implode if Jesus the man actually wasn't celibate? Is he less the son of God if his mother had children with her husband after Jesus? Is the foundation of our faith the holy grail? If the church really does lie to their members does that make Christ less than a savior?

I really don't hold a fictional author or producers of a murder mystery film responsible for the fact that people mistakenly take their product as fact.

The problem is that Brown makes the claim that what he has written in his book is true:

Brown writes his truth claim after the title page: "All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals are accurate." Art and archaeology historians have taken it upon themselves to call him to task for the inaccurate and unprofessional nature of such a claim. Following good advice from his agent and publisher, he has refused to recant, preferring marketing savvy to academic integrity.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194665,00.html

Leanna · May 25, 2006

Carri20 said:
"Are readers being convinced? A survey by Decima Research, Inc. showed that one out of three Canadians who have read the book now believes there are descendants of Jesus walking among us today. And according to pollster George Barna, 53 percent of Americans who've read the book said it had been helpful in their 'personal spiritual growth and understanding.'"

God's not laughing, Leanna. Satan is.

I don't appreciate being singled out, but all I will say is I don't believe it-- I want to know how large the sample group was (50 people?) to have 1 of 3 believing there are decendents of Jesus today. I don't believe everything I read-- oh but wait you do since you found this one thing in this one Christian-view book. Have you met anyone who believes there are decendents of Christ alive? Because I talk to a lot of people both Christian and non Christian, and I personally don't know anyone who believes that. Soooo....

That's fine, shake your head and weep for the future. My kids are going to be well educated and with a firm understanding of truth, fiction. I am not a bit worried about it. Personally I am far more worried about our generation's lack of discipline and lazy parenting than I am about our reading material.

Sophia7 · May 25, 2006

Here are a few comments that Dan Brown gave in an interview:

Reacting to the interviewers pokes and prodding, he gave clues about his take on theology, history, Church doctrine, and the meaning of life. Here he is, Dan Brown:

"We now turn to God for only a handful of questions that science has not yet been able to understand. We still have religion based on proof from incredulity (it must be so because there is no other explanation). We still believe in a God of the gaps."

He gave an example:

"We are unable to conceive of our hopes, dreams, memories, and spirits evaporating into thin air when we die, so therefore we say there must be an afterlife. We cant imagine it another way."

He went on to opine, "The biggest challenge to our spiritual being is our brains are evolving." He then asked, "How do we become solidly minded scientifically, without losing our religion?"

He questioned the possibility of arriving at historic truth. "How historically accurate is history itself?" In reference to the much discussed "Gospel of Judas" he quipped, "But maybe, just maybe, that missing piece does belong hereand the picture of the puzzle will turn out differently than we originally thought."

Up to this point, we could surmise that his personal views dont necessarily cross over to his writing. But then along came the clincher.

In response to a question about his view of the many books and pamphlets aimed at "decoding" or "debunking" the claims of his book, he responded, "Those authors and I obviously disagree."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194946,00.html

These are not the views of someone who thinks that his work is mere fiction.

Carri20 · May 25, 2006

I don't appreciate being singled out, but all I will say is I don't believe it--

If you don't believe it then it's because you don't want to. If the statistics are even half true...if Dan Brown has led even ONE person to hell through his works...then that should be more than enough to label his garbage blasphemous in any God-seeking Christian's mind. What do you think the chances are that no one is taking his work seriously, especially when he claims that everything's accurate?

I'm really getting tired of people worshipping the entertainment industry and then calling themselves Christians. I'd throw my TV set out a bloody window before I'd let my brain rot that far.

Leanna · May 25, 2006

Sophia7 said:
These are not the views of someone who thinks that his work is mere fiction.

Yeah, so the guy's a loon. It doesn't matter if he thinks its fiction or not... like I said earlier, I think the guy should have researched a little more history so that he didn't look so stupid, but he didn't, and that doesn't make his story any less fiction.

Carri20 said:
I'm really getting tired of people worshipping the entertainment industry and then calling themselves Christians. I'd throw my TV set out a bloody window before I'd let my brain rot that far.

I guess we just have different priorities. We don't worship the entertainment industry though since we hardly ever watch TV.

Carri20 · May 25, 2006

I guess we just have different priorities.

I guess so.

Sophia7 · May 25, 2006

Leanna said:
I don't appreciate being singled out, but all I will say is I don't believe it-- I want to know how large the sample group was (50 people?) to have 1 of 3 believing there are decendents of Jesus today. I don't believe everything I read-- oh but wait you do since you found this one thing in this one Christian-view book. Have you met anyone who believes there are decendents of Christ alive? Because I talk to a lot of people both Christian and non Christian, and I personally don't know anyone who believes that. Soooo....

That's fine, shake your head and weep for the future. My kids are going to be well educated and with a firm understanding of truth, fiction. I am not a bit worried about it. Personally I am far more worried about our generation's lack of discipline and lazy parenting than I am about our reading material.

I've read the results of similar surveys that were done in Europe, where people have a much more secular mindset than in the U.S.--not as many attend church or even claim to be Christians. Here is a link to an article that discusses a survey done of 1,000 people in England:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12815760/#storyContinued

Yes, they are being influenced by the ideas of people like Dan Brown. By the way, Brown's claims are not new; they have been around for a long time, so it's not all his fault.

Personally, I believe that it is lazy parenting to let our kids read garbage like this. I have high standards for my own reading and viewing material, and when my kids are old enough, I will have high standards for theirs:

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things" (Philippians 4:8).

Leanna · May 25, 2006

Sophia7 said:
I have high standards for my own reading and viewing material, and when my kids are old enough, I will have high standards for theirs:

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things" (Philippians 4:8).

I know you mean the best, and so I wish you well with it. If you judge everything by that standard though you better never watch the news and had better be very diligent to stay within a bubble where the real world never reaches you. The real world is not all lovely if you know what I mean. A lot of Christians are like that though.... so I hope it works out as best as possible. I just don't believe in over-sheltering my children, its against my personal philosophy and that is not "lazy" at all since I make a conscience choice in that direction. This is not a book I will put on their reading list because I just don't feel it is a very good book at all, but if they come to me at 14 and say "hey look at this book Davinci code! can i read it!" then the answer will be yes, and I'll hand him Truth and Fiction in the Davinci Code and be open to questions since one good thing this book does is get people to research some pertinent history.

wanderingone · May 25, 2006

Carri20 said:
For those of you who want to play Russian roulette with your children, expose them to this garbage at a young age and hope to God they remember which parts are truth and which are not, I can only shake my head and weep for the future.

I don't like the way some people fail to teach their children how to do research and use logical thought processes but it doesn't make me weep for the future. I know we're all doing what we believe is best for our children.

Personally my children don't have to remember what is truth and what is not in a fiction book. It's fiction.. none of it is to be taken as FACT.

I don't teach my children to accept every thing in a non-fiction book as fact. I expect them to look at sources, to understand the motivations behind the authors of various books. Certainly their are non-fiction creations that are still full of garbage. It's almost easier with fiction, it's ALL just a story in fiction, it's easy to tell them "it's just a story" when they ask about a novel, it's another issue entirely to help them understand facts twisted and misrepresented in a book that is supposed to be factual.

wanderingone · May 25, 2006

Sophia7 said:
Personally, I believe that it is lazy parenting to let our kids read garbage like this. I have high standards for my own reading and viewing material, and when my kids are old enough, I will have high standards for theirs:

Personally I think fear filled parenting might be worse than lazy parenting. But as a parent who rarely censors what my older children read I assure you it is not lazy parenting that invites them to read, question and discuss. It's involved active parenting that doesn't fear that the foundation of faith laid for them at a young age bears no fruit in the teen years.

homeschooling_Momma · May 25, 2006

theres no way or no how I would allow my children to read/watch that mess.

Carri20 · May 25, 2006

theres no way or no how I would allow my children to read/watch that mess.

Amen.

wanderingone · May 25, 2006

Carri20 said:
especially when he claims that everything's accurate?

What he says is

HOW MUCH OF THIS NOVEL IS TRUE?
The Da Vinci Code is a novel and therefore a work of fiction. While the book's characters and their actions are obviously not real, the artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals depicted in this novel all exist (for example, Leonardo Da Vinci's paintings, the Gnostic Gospels, Hieros Gamos, etc.). These real elements are interpreted and debated by fictional characters. While it is my belief that some of the theories discussed by these characters may have merit, each individual reader must explore these characters' viewpoints and come to his or her own interpretations. My hope in writing this novel was that the story would serve as a catalyst and a springboard for people to discuss the important topics of faith, religion, and history.

and

IS THIS BOOK ANTI-CHRISTIAN?
No. This book is not anti-anything. It's a novel. I wrote this story in an effort to explore certain aspects of Christian history that interest me. The vast majority of devout Christians understand this fact and consider The Da Vinci Code an entertaining story that promotes spiritual discussion and debate. Even so, a small but vocal group of individuals has proclaimed the story dangerous, heretical, and anti-Christian. While I regret having offended those individuals, I should mention that priests, nuns, and clergy contact me all the time to thank me for writing the novel. Many church officials are celebrating The Da Vinci Code because it has sparked renewed interest in important topics of faith and Christian history. It is important to remember that a reader does not have to agree with every word in the novel to use the book as a positive catalyst for introspection and exploration of our faith.

He also happens to be a Christian-

http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html
-----------------------------

I'm really getting tired of people worshipping the entertainment industry and then calling themselves Christians.

I'm really getting tired of people thinking just because someone doesn't spend their lives boycotting tv shows, movies and books and giving them free publicity their Christianity is somehow in question. Because my faith is not undermined easily I don't find much of the fictional world a threat to it. I expect my adolescent children to at the least be able to have an intelligent discussion about fact and fiction and I don't anticipate the foundation I have laid for them being rocked by a novel, the cracks would already have to be severe for them to take a mildy entertaining book and run with it as truth.

Athene · May 25, 2006

hummmm

Athene · May 25, 2006

Who is the better witness, the people who have read the book and come to their own conclusion that it is fiction, or the people who haven't read the book but rely on other peoples opinions and launch personal attacks against those who disagree with them . . . . . ?

bliz · May 25, 2006

It's not a book for children! It's not a movie for children! This is adult entertainment. If older teens cannot see/read this movie/book and know what is truth and what is fiction and which ideas conform to Christian thought and which don't, or know how to research and find out which is true and which is false, something has gone very, very wrong with their upbringing a long time ago.

Proper parenting is teaching our kids to stand on their own two feet and evaluate things for themselves - not to give us phone calls "Mom, is this truth or a falsehood?" for the rest of our lives.

Controversial films have always been the catalyst for some great theological discussions in our house. Thankfully our kids were able to attend a great Christian school that also fostered this kind of examination of ideas. We are called to be salt and light in this world, not to run away scared. It's hard to redeem a culture when you are running away from it.

Davinci code, can your children read or watch?

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