Damned children?

Hello Zoomer! (cool name)

Can you share with us what scriptures reveal this? (show you that baptism bestows faith through the Holy Spirit)

Thanks. )

Cello

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I'll have to pick this up tomorrow, I am off to work.

Thanks for the compliment, my dad used to call me Zoomer when I was little. I used to Zoom around in the baby walker .

Zoomer said:

I'll have to pick this up tomorrow, I am off to work.

Thanks for the compliment, my dad used to call me Zoomer when I was little. I used to Zoom around in the baby walker .

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Redguard said:

Right, but then Jesus himself was baptized by John the Baptist. So what does that tell you?

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I think we are getting to caught up in the physical act of baptism. Baptism is not a saving act. It is a symbol, a remembrance, if you will, just as communion is. It is an act of obedience to our Lord, following his commandment to be baptised. We have no power to save ourselves, it only comes as a gift of God. Also, we must each choose daily to re-affirm our baptism, in continuing to honor and obey the Lord.

pro_odeh said:

Let me tell you a story. There was once an atheist family. A mother, father and daughter. Their house burned down one night, and both parents died, but the little girl survived. And she was adopted to a christian family. They took her to sunday school, and the teacher told her about Jesus, and showed her a picture. Then the girl said: "I know that man.." The others didnt understand anything. She had never heard about Jesus ever in her life. she countinued "He's the one who held my hand the night my parents died..."

I think Jesus has a special relation to all children. That is why He speaks so well about them in the Bible. But we must not forget the fact that also children can reject Jesus, no matter what age they are in. We dont want to think that anyone will come to hell. especially little children. But the fact is that all children are sinners, just like the rest, and we cannot say that they have a free pass to heaven because they are children. God loves them, but they are still sinners. And they have to except Jesus to enter.
Now that doesnt mean that they have to except Him in the way we might think. But in one way or another.. They have to make a choice, just like the rest. no one is born doomed, or with a free pass to heaven.. (sorry if you are offended, I know its hard to think that little children can go to hell..)
God bless!

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Ive heard this, it's a gospel as well as a country song. It was about the little girl seeing Jesus behing the couch holding her when she saw her daddy shoot her mom. Love that song, don't know that its a true story though. If it is, how awesome!

Genes!s said:

Can someone PLEASE provide scripture for this argument? Where do you get this idea?

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Yes, but what about the verse in Corinthians where it shows us that if the Believing wife stays with the Unbelieving husband (or vice versa), the children are santified (made holy).


In other words, the children of the holy are considered holy (until, apparently, there is a time when they reach personal accountability).


As for the children of the unbelieving...I don't know. I don't think we have clear Scriptural precedent to concretely "prove" anything either way... I know I'd like to hope that they are heaven-bound, but I don't know that for sure. All I know is that the children of the Believers are for sure. Either that or Paul messed up when he was writing to Corinth.



Blessings,
Molly

Yes, but what about the verse in Corinthians where it shows us that if the Believing wife stays with the Unbelieving husband (or vice versa), the children are santified (made holy).

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Concidered holy, but they are not automaticly saved! BIG diffrence..
God bless!

I don't know what your definition of New Testament sanctification is or not, but mine is very simple: Holy, Sanctified, Acceptable Unto God.

I believe you can find that same simple definition in most lexicons and most dictionaries too.

And if "sanctified" doesn't mean Acceptable Unto God in that passage, then what does it mean? They are sanctified from what and to what?


Blessings,
Molly

Don't have my Bible handy but doesn't Paul tell a jailor in Acts that salvation has come to his whole household. How does this fit in?

Made holy means that they are separated from the rest. They live a more acceptable lifestyle. But they are still sinners, and need Jesus to be saved.

Sorry, I don't have time today to put my own reply so I am cutting and pasting.

Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Baptism, we believe, is one of the miraculous means of grace (together with God's written and spoken Word) through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person's heart (see Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:38; John 3:5-7; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Titus 3:5-6; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13). This faith needs to be fed and nurtured by God's Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about Baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. This faith cannot yet, of course, be expressed or articulated, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Titus 3:5-6; Matt. 18:6; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15).

Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthen faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.

The LCMS does not believe that baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved (apparently without baptism), as were all true believers in the Old Testament era. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

Why Baptize infants..

Lutherans baptize infants because of what the Bible teaches regarding:

1.) God's command to baptize (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). There is not a single passage in Scripture which instructs us not to baptize for reasons of age, race, or gender. On the contrary, the divine commands to baptize in Scripture are all universal in nature. On the basis of these commands, the Christian church has baptized infants from the earliest days of its history. Since those baptized are also to be instructed in the Christian faith, (Matt. 28:20), the church baptizes infants only where there is the assurance that parents or spiritual guardians will nurture the faith of the one baptized through continued teaching of God's Word.

2.) Our need for baptism (Psalm 51; 5; John 3:5-7; Acts 2:38; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:3-4). According to the Bible, all people--including infants--are sinful and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). King David confesses, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). Like adults, infants die--sure proof that they too are under the curse of sin and death. According to the Bible, baptism (somewhat like Old Testament circumcision, administered to 8-day-old-babies--see Col. 2:11-12) is God's gracious way of washing away our sins--even the sins of infants--without any help or cooperation on our part. It is a wonderful gift of a loving and gracious God.

3.) God's promises and power (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6; Galatians 3:26-27; Romans 6:1-4; Colossians 2;11-12; Ephesians 5:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those churches which deny baptism to infants usually do so because they have a wrong understanding of baptism. They see baptism as something we do (e.g., a public profession of faith, etc.) rather than seeing it as something that God does for us and in us. None of the passages listed above, nor any passage in Scripture, describes baptism as "our work" or as "our public confession of faith." Instead, these passages describe baptism as a gracious and powerful work of God through which He miraculously (though through very "ordinary" means) washes away our sins by applying to us the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection (Acts 2:38:39; Acts 22:16), gives us a new birth in which we "cooperate" just as little as we did in our first birth (John 3:5-7), clothes us in Christ's righteousness (Gal. 3:26-27), gives us the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-6), saves us (1 Peter 3:21), buries us and raises us up with Christ as new creatures (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12), makes us holy in God's sight (Eph. 5: 25-26) and incorporates us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). All of this, according to the Bible, happens in baptism, and all of it is God's doing, not ours. The promises and power of baptism are extended to all in Scripture--including infants-and are available to all. Parents and sponsors then have the privilege and responsibility of nurturing the baptized child in God's love and in His Word so that he or she may know and continue to enjoy the wonderful blessings of baptism throughout his or her life.