Damned children?

raphael_aa · Dec 20, 2004

My own twin 15 year olds are disabled. The idea of them 'accepting Jesus' in a traditional way is just impossible. I think we in western christianity have made the faith so much about intellectual knowledge. We think people have to 'understand' or 'accept or reject' primarily with their mind. Knowing my sons as I do, I know they are in touxch with deep wells of spirituality that I know little of. Too often they have been my teachers. God has a bias for the weak, the poor and the powerless. I do not doubt my children are loved by God and will be in union with Him in death.

pro_odeh · Dec 21, 2004

Let me tell you a story. There was once an atheist family. A mother, father and daughter. Their house burned down one night, and both parents died, but the little girl survived. And she was adopted to a christian family. They took her to sunday school, and the teacher told her about Jesus, and showed her a picture. Then the girl said: "I know that man.." The others didnt understand anything. She had never heard about Jesus ever in her life. she countinued "He's the one who held my hand the night my parents died..."

I think Jesus has a special relation to all children. That is why He speaks so well about them in the Bible. But we must not forget the fact that also children can reject Jesus, no matter what age they are in. We dont want to think that anyone will come to hell. especially little children. But the fact is that all children are sinners, just like the rest, and we cannot say that they have a free pass to heaven because they are children. God loves them, but they are still sinners. And they have to except Jesus to enter.
Now that doesnt mean that they have to except Him in the way we might think. But in one way or another.. They have to make a choice, just like the rest. no one is born doomed, or with a free pass to heaven.. (sorry if you are offended, I know its hard to think that little children can go to hell..)
God bless!

Cello · Dec 21, 2004

Martin Calvin said:
I believe that the dogma (or faith tradition) of "age of accountiblity" is being misunderstood and completely misused here. In the OT it talks about a coming of age in regaurds to acceptance of legal responsiblity (like citizenship and paying taxes). In the NT it talks about both young and old coming to God. In fact many of the parables in Jesus' teaching are about CHILDREN.

I agree with Cello on the point that souls don't have age. If we believe our souls are eternal (without end) then the generation point shouldn't matter (and doesn't matter to God). If anything were to be used to show how old someone was when they passed into glory it would be the refinement of their soul. The Bible is very clear that we are born into sin. But it also makes it clear that we are all judged according to our hearts. To me the fact that God looks into our souls and judges us against what we knew is the important part to remember. I also like the idea that God is able to know who we would have been and judges us accordingly. No one wants to think that anyone we like is in Hell. But those decisions are for God alone, and dwelling on them comes very close to idolitry. The best we can do is pray that Jesus will interceed as he promises to do for his beloved.

The bible is clear, we are born into sin and God judges our hearts. Thats kinda the end of the story, isn't it? I mean, we can discuss til the cows come home or hte good Lord returns, but in the end, He judges each one's heart. Baby, child, adult, elderly....

I have often wondered why people become so much more disturbed about 'children' being in hell than 'adults'......we are all born into sin. And as most have agreed, souls aren't about age. I like how you put the idea of soul age being refinement of the soul.

Genes!s · Dec 21, 2004

pro_odeh said:
I think Jesus has a special relation to all children. That is why He speaks so well about them in the Bible. But we must not forget the fact that also children can reject Jesus, no matter what age they are in. We dont want to think that anyone will come to hell. especially little children. But the fact is that all children are sinners, just like the rest, and we cannot say that they have a free pass to heaven because they are children. God loves them, but they are still sinners. And they have to except Jesus to enter.
Now that doesnt mean that they have to except Him in the way we might think. But in one way or another.. They have to make a choice, just like the rest. no one is born doomed, or with a free pass to heaven.. (sorry if you are offended, I know its hard to think that little children can go to hell..)
God bless!

Can someone PLEASE provide scripture for this argument? Where do you get this idea?

Genes!s · Dec 21, 2004

Cello said:
I have often wondered why people become so much more disturbed about 'children' being in hell than 'adults'......we are all born into sin.

But this is the point: Children are innocent, adults are not. Adults make concious decisions about their lives, children do not understand enough about life to make those decisions. So how can God condemn a child who doesn't understand enough to save him/herself from hell?

Cello · Dec 21, 2004

Genes!s said:
I didn't want this to turn into a debate, and I think some have misunderstood. I am fully aware of what souls are and all of that, my question was regarding children, innocence, and accountablility.

I was also taught about the 'age of accountability' and always took that to mean accountability came when children matured enough to understand their faith. I am still wanting someone who believes children can go to hell, to provide me with scripture. And I appreciate the scripture provided for the other side.

And I apologize for this, but I was a bit offended by some people being so 'matter of fact' regarding this topic. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but when I am discussing my children especially, I don't appreciate people treating the subject like just another discussion. I guess I would prefer some compassion. Sorry if this offends.

Hello, I haven't seen any debate thus far, maybe I missed that...but its an interesting thread and a topic that can really penetrate a mothers heart. I have two children myself. So I apologize if I personally was one that offended you by being matter of fact. How old are your children? MIne are 16 and a half and 3 and a half...

Personally, I believe children CAN go to hell.....if that is what you want to hear (my opinion stated flat out). But I couch that by saying, there are no children in hell. There aren't any in heaven either.

I do not believe children are "innocent"...innocent of what? Sin? I don't think so, I believe that we are all born into sin - the wages of sin is death - and that God judges our hearts. I believe a heart of a child can be 'lost'. What is the definition of sin being used...if one believes sin is wilfull disobedience to the word of God...well, children are guilty of that. Children know right from wrong at a very young age. They may not understand GOD said it and therefore it is sin....it all depends on how people view sin and thought and all of that!!

Perhaps it would help to define child. Do children cease to be children once they hit the age of accountability? If not, then you yourself believe that children can go to hell -- if a child is past the age of accountability and has not made a decision for Christ. Or am I misunderstanding your reasoning?

I don't offer to debate, just discuss. I'm harmless and friendly and totally open to hearing others thoughts, its what I love about the forums. I believe these things are all secondary to being part of the body, I trust God holds all the pieces that we dont' understand adn so that gives me great freedom to enjoy discussion without ever feeling the need to prove someone wrong or myself right or anything, I'm just here to share. ((just wanted to let you know where I am coming from since I am BRAND new to the forums here))

Its nice to meet you Genesis. You can call me Cello!!

Genes!s · Dec 21, 2004

raphael_aa said:
I think we in western christianity have made the faith so much about intellectual knowledge. We think people have to 'understand' or 'accept or reject' primarily with their mind.

I think you're right.

Redguard · Dec 21, 2004

Sounds like an arm-twisting tactic to get people to baptize their babies.

My belief is that baby's aren't meant to be baptized. My daughter was "dedicated to the Lord" as a baby, but I can't buy her insurance into Heaven by having her baptized before she can make the consious decision to accept Christ.

I wouldn't pay any attention to any comment like that. We need to give God more credit than that. He is all loving, not all hating.

Genes!s · Dec 21, 2004

Cello said:
Hello, I haven't seen any debate thus far, maybe I missed that...but its an interesting thread and a topic that can really penetrate a mothers heart. I have two children myself.

Personally, I believe children CAN go to hell.....if that is what you want to hear. But I couch that by saying, there are no children in hell. There aren't any in heaven either.

If that is what I want to hear? If you're going to talk at me, I won't go any further with this. All I want is scripture to back the 'children can go to hell' comment up. No one has provided me with that yet, all I'm getting is personal opinions.

I believe that we are all born into sin - the wages of sin is death

But isn't that why Jesus died for us; so we wouldn't have to die for our own sins?

I wasn't seeking a philosophy discussion, I just want scripture.

Its nice to meet you Genesis. You can call me Cello!!

Thanks, you too.

Genes!s · Dec 21, 2004

Redguard said:
Sounds like an arm-twisting tactic to get people to baptize their babies.

My belief is that baby's aren't meant to be baptized. My daughter was "dedicated to the Lord" as a baby, but I can't buy her insurance into Heaven by having her baptized before she can make the consious decision to accept Christ.

I wouldn't pay any attention to any comment like that. We need to give God more credit than that. He is all loving, not all hating.

My sons were also dedicated, none of us have ever been baptized.

Redguard · Dec 21, 2004

Yeah... I've seen instances where babies are born and people are breaking their necks trying to rush the baby into a church so he/she can be baptized.

I also know a lot of people who were baptized as babies, and now live horrible lives (horrible, as in ungodly). But they believe that since they've been baptized, they've got insurance. So it's easy sailing from here on.

Not true.

Cello · Dec 21, 2004

Genes!s said:
If that is what I want to hear? If you're going to talk at me, I won't go any further with this. All I want is scripture to back the 'children can go to hell' comment up. No one has provided me with that yet, all I'm getting is personal opinions.

But isn't that why Jesus died for us; so we wouldn't have to die for our own sins?

I wasn't seeking a philosophy discussion, I just want scripture.

Thanks, you too.

My gosh, is that what you got from my lengthy post? I had gone back and edited that part while you were busy being offended. Sorry. What I intended to reflect was if you want to hear someone say their opinion of that stance straight out.....I am so sorry, I'm not trying to make matters worse.

No, Jesus didn't save anyone from death per se. We all die. Then comes judgement. Do you believe in a universal salvatoin? One where all mankind is eventually saved?

Forgiveme for assuming, but I figured you knew the scriptures which were being eluded too. The issue seems to me to be in interpretation and conviction. I am convicted of one thing you are convicted of another.....

Ok....I believe these scriptures address the topic in part:

Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 16:
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

---------

I do not believe there are any verses which say children are going to hell nor are there any that say children are going to heaven. I believe it is a topic that is gleaned from scripture overall and it is according to our views on how we sin sin and accountability etc.

I do not intend to offend and I can see that you are indeed offended and if we can't discuss cordially then I'll not address you further...if that is your desire. If you care to further the discussion I'd be most obliged and in that vein would enjoy hearing your furthered perspective on the topic. You mentioned you were taught about an age of accountability, do you find that represented adequately in scripture?

Thanks.

andiesmama · Dec 21, 2004

I agree with Reguard about making a conscious decision to accept Christ. Granted, young children can't "officially" accept Christ as their saviour....they may know the idea of Jesus but can't quite grasp the entire concept. When someone is old enough to understand about the acceptance of Jesus and the ramifications of NOT accepting Him, that's when I believe the consequences set in.

I can't belive that God would deny eternal salvation due to that fact. And no, I don't have scripture to back that up....it's simply my strong opinion and personal feeling on the subject.

Zoomer · Dec 21, 2004

My belief is that baby's aren't meant to be baptized. My daughter was "dedicated to the Lord" as a baby, but I can't buy her insurance into Heaven by having her baptized before she can make the consious decision to accept Christ.

It has nothing to do with insurance to Heaven. Baptism isn't a "get out of Hell free" card. There are those of us who believe that we do not accept Jesus or ask him into our heart. Our sinful human nature will do anything to go against God, so how could we ask him into our heart without Him in the first place. We believe that baptism is one means of the Holy Spirit planting faith into the heart of a child (the other is hearing the Word). How can you judge if a child has faith or not? Just because they cannot articulate it does not mean they do not have it. I do not understand why so many Christians take baptism so lightly. They always claim it is a work, is it is only an outward sign of faith, etc. Regardless, Jesus instituted baptism, and commanded it. It is not a human work to secure a spot in Heaven, but a the Words, work, and command of God through which He imparts His Grace through faith.

also know a lot of people who were baptized as babies, and now live horrible lives (horrible, as in ungodly). But they believe that since they've been baptized, they've got insurance. So it's easy sailing from here on.

This shows a lack of understanding of infant baptism on your part. As I said above, baptism does not secure anyone a spot in Heaven. It bestows faith through the Holy Spirit, but that faith-- if not nutured properly will not grow. I do not believe in once saved, always saved. People can fall from the faith, at any point in their lives.

Cello · Dec 21, 2004

Genes!s said:
But this is the point: Children are innocent, adults are not. Adults make concious decisions about their lives, children do not understand enough about life to make those decisions. So how can God condemn a child who doesn't understand enough to save him/herself from hell?

I do not believe children to be innocent.

Innocent of what? Sin?...I think I mentioned this in my other post to you. ) but a snapshot is:

Depends on how one defines sin....if all are born sinful, that would include children. My son certainly knows right from wrong and yet chooses wrong - thats sin. I believe all of humanity put Jesus on the cross.

Also, I believe, don't think that anyone saves him or herself. I personally believe it is God who saves, through Christ.

It is an interesting discussion to be sure, I think. I am interested in hearing and reading and doing more studying in my bible. Again, I am really sorry for any offense...its not intended!!! I hope we may all be spurned to further study and pursuit of God through the discussion and your topic.

~Cello

Cello · Dec 21, 2004

Genes!s said:
My sons were also dedicated, none of us have ever been baptized.

Sorry, off topic, but may I ask why? (no baptisms) Just curious. I do not think it is necessary by any means.....just wondering at your choice or particular circumstance.

Redguard · Dec 21, 2004

I'm not so sure about that, Zoomer.

If people were meant to be baptized as infants, then wouldn't Mary have had Jesus baptized as an infant? Jesus was the example, wasn't He?

Baptism is the "acceptance" of Christ as your lord and saviour. It IS a conscious decision that must be made by the individual. With that said, infant 'baptism' isn't what people need to be sweating about.

And as for instilling faith through baby baptism... well... what will you say about those of us who weren't baptized as babies, yet we've come to accept Christ? Are we just lucky, or some kind of anomoly?

Cello · Dec 21, 2004

Zoomer said:
It bestows faith through the Holy Spirit, but that faith-- if not nutured properly will not grow. I do not believe in once saved, always saved. People can fall from the faith, at any point in their lives.

Hello Zoomer! (cool name)

Can you share with us what scriptures reveal this? (show you that baptism bestows faith through the Holy Spirit)

Thanks. )

Cello

Zoomer · Dec 21, 2004

If people were meant to be baptized as infants, then wouldn't Mary have had Jesus baptized as an infant? Jesus was the example, wasn't He?

Why would he have to be baptized? He is already God, perfect, unblemished, free of sin and death. He institued baptism as the church practices it when he told the disciples to baptize.

Baptism is the "acceptance" of Christ as your lord and saviour. It IS a conscious decision that must be made by the individual. With that said, infant 'baptism' isn't what people need to be sweating about.

It's not really the individual who chooses..

"Therefore I want you to understand that no one.. can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3

And as for instilling faith through baby baptism... well... what will you say about those of us who weren't baptized as babies, yet we've come to accept Christ? Are we just lucky, or some kind of anomoly?

You can also come to faith by hearing the Word of God.

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." Romans 10:17

Redguard · Dec 21, 2004

Right, but then Jesus himself was baptized by John the Baptist. So what does that tell you?

Damned children?

Wild eyed liberal

-=Disciple of Jesus Christ=-

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