Creation/Evolution/Confusion

Naraoia said:

How anthropocentric.

That may be a self-evident truth for you, but I would like to see your reasoning.

Click to expand...

The physical universe began its existence with comparatively simple parts. Like dominoes it interacted with itself in such a way that over time these interactions together with parts it made itself I find myself existing. Pretty cool. If I look at a human factory, I see it started as an idea in somebodies mind, moved from mind to paper, from paper to empty field, from empty field to huge machinery, from there to finished product. The product did not just pop into being with no context any more than I did. So that is my reasoning. love-sam

Cabal said:

I'm pointing out that there aren't two different forms of chemistry. The same chemistry governs both life and non-life.

Click to expand...

Hey, agreement. fer sur, but its the difference and magnitude between the pebble and the brussel sprout that is like a pointer to God. love-sam

samcarternx said:

Hey, agreement. fer sur, but its the difference and magnitude between the pebble and the brussel sprout that is like a pointer to God. love-sam

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Something having an arbitrarily low odds of occurring doesn't mean it proves that God did it.

Cabal said:

Not necessarily. Something having an arbitrarily low odds of occurring doesn't mean it proves that God did it.

Click to expand...

random
Even if you think random could do it, everything that occurred in the past what 10 billion years had to be random too. Sorry, I just didn't think random made sense. God made a way for us to decide. "If any man follows after me, he will know whether my words come from the Father or not." I did and they do. You can believe my words or not, I only testify as a witness. love-sam

samcarternx said:

random
Even if you think random could do it, everything that occurred in the past what 10 billion years had to be random too. Sorry, I just didn't think random made sense. God made a way for us to decide. "If any man follows after me, he will know whether my words come from the Father or not." I did and they do. You can believe my words or not, I only testify as a witness. love-sam

Click to expand...

Who said it was random? I just said it was less likely. Evolution is not random, though it contains random elements.

samcarternx said:

I'm still seeking agreement. I'm saying life forms are artifacts because brussel sprouts are different from pebbles and you cannot explain that difference only that the difference is one of great magnitude. Life forms don't have place in inanimate chemistry and their complexity is to great to shrug off outside interaction. You didn't make this universe anymore than I did so first I postulate that God did it then I figger He didn't leave me hanging so I set out to find out and sure enough He left a trail. love-sam

Click to expand...

you dont mean artifacts, of course, those are man made, but THAT probably is quibbling.

Now, you jump from pebble to brussel sprout.

Couple of comments. If you knew all there is to know about that pebble, you would be deeply cued to the basic nature of reality, far more than someone who has not studied physics a bit might realize. just sayin'.

lets not do pebble and sprouts, lets try something else. Like some chemistry.

All manner of quite complex organic molecules self assemble under suitable conditions, from the basic raw materials of carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and hudrogen.

Also, chemicals interact with eachother with a speed beyond human experience to really grasp. All manner of things take place at incredible speed.

You take the whole planet, a lot of materials and different conditions times the fantastic number of trillions of atoms / interactions, billions of years, and anything that could happen will happen.

There is no bright line distinction between life and non life. many things exist in that grey border area. Prions, and viruses for 2.

its not pebble to sprout. its a sea of trillions of organic molecules to a self replicating molecule... and such, you know, do exist.

There is nothing about life that is not chemical reactions; no spirit, no magic spark. Complex ones, yes. But chemical reactions.


Life forms don't have place in inanimate chemistry and their complexity is to great to shrug off outside interaction.

None of this really is true or makes sense*. The last thing any researcher wants to do is "shrug off" something related to their research. This is getting ideas backwards; the goddidit route is the shrug-off.

If any research ever did actually point to a creator, then fine; so far, tho none ever has.

Now, i have a feeling you have little in the way of science background.
That is fine; follow your own path to where it takes you. But dont, you know, hop the fence to our territory, tell us things that are not so about it, and call that a path to god.. fair?


* There is no such thing as "inanimate chemistry". We have P-chem, organic, analytical. Some of us here will gladly take time to fill you in on some things if you arent here with an attitude that you already have the answers and just want to argue from a religious perch against science.

samcarternx said:

random
Even if you think random could do it, everything that occurred in the past what 10 billion years had to be random too. Sorry, I just didn't think random made sense. God made a way for us to decide. "If any man follows after me, he will know whether my words come from the Father or not." I did and they do. You can believe my words or not, I only testify as a witness. love-sam

Click to expand...

Evolution is not incompatible with a god. just incompatible with some superstitious stories about a god.

i feat that theists / non scientists / non mathematicians get horribly out of tune with the word "random". Else they will leave it alone and certainly not try to sue it as an argument, going off into such weirdness as some do, about a tornado assembling a 747.

Here is something that may help a bit. Imagine a jar of salt water. The ions in there are moving about completely randomly. At extremely high speed, colliding with eachother at every angle, their mean free path being less than their own diameter.

What is a mess like THAT going to build?

a perfect salt crystal.

Random makes sense if you know what it is. Not much of anything makes sense if you dont understand it. And a lot of things are not at all intuitive, you have to spend patient time in study.

Hespera said:

Evolution is not incompatible with a god. just incompatible with some superstitious stories about a god.

i feat that theists / non scientists / non mathematicians get horribly out of tune with the word "random". Else they will leave it alone and certainly not try to sue it as an argument, going off into such weirdness as some do, about a tornado assembling a 747.

Here is something that may help a bit. Imagine a jar of salt water. The ions in there are moving about completely randomly. At extremely high speed, colliding with eachother at every angle, their mean free path being less than their own diameter.

What is a mess like THAT going to build?

a perfect salt crystal.

Random makes sense if you know what it is. Not much of anything makes sense if you dont understand it. And a lot of things are not at all intuitive, you have to spend patient time in study.

Click to expand...

Ok you don't like random. Did this physical universe have any choice but to do what it has done? If not then from the beginning I was postulated because here I am. Combined with what I have seen and heard, the existence of God is the best explanation of my being because it implies purpose raison d' etre(?), the universe without God has no purpose. Starting with the premise that God DID do it, my investigations lead me to Savior the Chosen who told me that if I would take Him seriously and follow after Him, I would know the truth of the existence of God and the reality of a spiritual universe. I am not saying that the physical universe and any or all the permutations are proof in a classical sense of anything. but it is a starting point. If I premise there is no God I am stuck in a dead end. By the way, I did follow Him and He is right I did find out there is a God and I am doing this in order to share my testimony, not to poke at you or the rest of those that don't believe. love-sam

samcarternx said:

The physical universe began its existence with comparatively simple parts. Like dominoes it interacted with itself in such a way that over time these interactions together with parts it made itself I find myself existing. Pretty cool. If I look at a human factory, I see it started as an idea in somebodies mind, moved from mind to paper, from paper to empty field, from empty field to huge machinery, from there to finished product. The product did not just pop into being with no context any more than I did. So that is my reasoning. love-sam

Click to expand...

Ah, analogy. Analogies are dangerous because there is nothing in logic to guarantee that they'll work. In fact, they often don't.

Why should I think that yours is strong enough to draw the conclusion you do?

samcarternx said:

Did this physical universe have any choice but to do what it has done?

Click to expand...

Well, the universe isn't sentient, but even probabilities that seem low in the sense that they are small numbers will occur if all other alternatives are even lower.

In a thermodynamical system like salt condensing out of solution, the odds of that particular configuration occuring are quite low, the number would probably be quite small, but the odds of anything else happening are even lower again.

the universe without God has no purpose.

Click to expand...

Why? And why does it need to have one?

Naraoia said:

Ah, analogy. Analogies are dangerous because there is nothing in logic to guarantee that they'll work. In fact,
Why should I think that yours is strong enough to draw the conclusion you do?

Click to expand...

The only thing this universe proves is MY existence. However, it is my starting point. I can premise God or noGod. No God leaves me in a dead end - body dies I'm gone, no runs, no hits, no errors, and no one left on, no purpose no reason for being. If I start from the premise that there is a God I can continue to seek Him out. That is what I did and found that Savior the Anointed One claimed to be from Him and that if I did what He said and followed Him I would know the truth whether there was a God or not. I did and He is right. The universe is just corroboration and these posts are not designed to poke at you or any others. I am just adding my testimony that there is a God and Jesus is who He says He is. Even if I get an F in apologetics I don't care. I have shared what I have, and you may be disappointed in having wasted your time with me, but at least I said it. love-sam

Cabal said:

Well, the universe isn't sentient, but even probabilities that seem low in the sense that they are small numbers will occur if all other alternatives are even lower.

In a thermodynamical system like salt condensing out of solution, the odds of that particular configuration occuring are quite low, the number would probably be quite small, but the odds of anything else happening are even lower again.



Why? And why does it need to have one?

Click to expand...

I wanted to know and I am part of this universe. love-sam

Holly's_Dream said:

I am a new Christian, i grew up in a non-Christian household and went to non-Christian schools.
As such, i grew up learning man came from apes, and pretty much everything else stemmed from some kind of adapted fish creature.
However, now that i have become a Christian, and learnt the truth of the Bible it is hard to undo 20 years of conditioning on the ascension of man.
I get the Biblical view, and i understand where the world is now, but because of that confusion, everything in between those time frames is a bit of a blur.
Can anyone help me unravel these things a little?

Click to expand...

here dear! something just for you !
make them splain this site
Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Evidence of Noah's Flood?-There Were Giants In Those Days
at least 28 pages hiding there and that you have to keep pushing the " next page button" and thousands of pages at that site of stuff no one wants to splain..


you see they can't get there from a monkey! only thing between two rows and of teeth built to chew for ever with 6 fingers .. and lucy. is just us . we are the transitional fossils that they will never admit too. and we are headed towards lucy!
have fun with those pages .. it is a blast from the past..

samcarternx said:

The only thing this universe proves is MY existence. However, it is my starting point. I can premise God or noGod. No God leaves me in a dead end - body dies I'm gone, no runs, no hits, no errors, and no one left on, no purpose no reason for being. If I start from the premise that there is a God I can continue to seek Him out. That is what I did and found that Savior the Anointed One claimed to be from Him and that if I did what He said and followed Him I would know the truth whether there was a God or not. I did and He is right. The universe is just corroboration and these posts are not designed to poke at you or any others. I am just adding my testimony that there is a God and Jesus is who He says He is. Even if I get an F in apologetics I don't care. I have shared what I have, and you may be disappointed in having wasted your time with me, but at least I said it. love-sam

Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned, you can believe whatever you want. A few years ago I might even have been jealous that you found the faith that I couldn't.

Personal beliefs are fine. The moment you make an argument, though, expect holes to be poked in it. Nothing personal, of course. We just like poking holes in arguments

samcarternx said:

I wanted to know and I am part of this universe. love-sam

Click to expand...

You must find your own purpose Sam. Giving that responsibility to a god that you intentionally will never understand in life is a bit of a cop-out.

MoonLancer said:

You must find your own purpose Sam. Giving that responsibility to a god that you intentionally will never understand in life is a bit of a cop-out.

Click to expand...

Read the rest of my posts and you will find not a formal proof that God exists, but a starting point that led me to Savior the Anointed One. He led me to my Maker whose purpose became my purpose. I am satisfied. love-sam

Holly's_Dream said:

I am a new Christian, i grew up in a non-Christian household and went to non-Christian schools.
As such, i grew up learning man came from apes, and pretty much everything else stemmed from some kind of adapted fish creature.
However, now that i have become a Christian, and learnt the truth of the Bible it is hard to undo 20 years of conditioning on the ascension of man.
I get the Biblical view, and i understand where the world is now, but because of that confusion, everything in between those time frames is a bit of a blur.
Can anyone help me unravel these things a little?

Click to expand...

Dear Holly Dream.
The confusion you talk about is not yours. It has been created by a very certain but limited brand of christians: biblical literalists. You have a bunch of people who think you (and will make you to believe too) that the bible is completely literally true.
Written in the Bronze Age by people who lived in the Middle East, the bible reflects the viewpoint of Middle Eastern Bronze Age people. But science (and humanity) has made progress. These biblical literalists want you to ignore three tousand year of scientific investigation and progress (the bulk of it made since the 19th century). They want you to ignore all knowledge gathered in archeology, astronomy, geology, glaciology, embryology, thermodynamics, biology, linguistics (!), neurology, chemistry, physics, cosmology, and of course paleontology.
These sciences all contradict the literal reading of the bible in one or more ways. And it is not one or two people who cmoe to this contradictory conclusions, but complete departements of all universities in the world.

Yep, all universities. Just a way to say it is not a bunch of idiots in the fringe of science that are in contradiction with a literal reading of the bible, but the complete scientific community. And many Nobel prize winners among them.

Chicken Little said:

here dear! something just for you !
make them splain this site

Click to expand...

A lot of your post doesn't make any sense so I'll keep this simple. Instead of someone wasting hours of their life going through each of the supposed Ooparts, why don't you pick three or four that you find most compelling and we can discuss them.

samcarternx said:

Ok you don't like random. Did this physical universe have any choice but to do what it has done? If not then from the beginning I was postulated because here I am. Combined with what I have seen and heard, the existence of God is the best explanation of my being because it implies purpose raison d' etre(?), the universe without God has no purpose. Starting with the premise that God DID do it, my investigations lead me to Savior the Chosen who told me that if I would take Him seriously and follow after Him, I would know the truth of the existence of God and the reality of a spiritual universe. I am not saying that the physical universe and any or all the permutations are proof in a classical sense of anything. but it is a starting point. If I premise there is no God I am stuck in a dead end. By the way, I did follow Him and He is right I did find out there is a God and I am doing this in order to share my testimony, not to poke at you or the rest of those that don't believe. love-sam

Click to expand...

"Random" is a perfectly good word. you were misusing it; I pointed that out. You will do better with your arguments and understand things better if you dont misapply words and concepts.

Not sure what you mean by whether the universe had a "choice'. It is not sentient. Matter and energy interact in ways that correspond with their nature, but as quantum mechanics have shown there is a level where it is not deterministic or predictable.

You may well not have studied very deep into physics, chemistry, geology, biology etc. i suspect not. i dont know what you have seen, or why you decided that god is the 'best explanation'. I think tho you answered this by saying it gives you a "purpose raison d' etre".

So then from there, you start with the conclusion that there is a god; that he "told" you something; and that what you get that way is the Truth.

I hope you can see why I am not going to use this method for convincing myself of anything.

i found this interesting..." If I premise there is no God I am stuck in a dead end."

It leaves me wondering, dead end of what? i certainly am not at a dead or any other kind of end in MY life, personal growth wise or any other way!

Why would you be? i find that really odd that you'd say that!

Also... I really dont like to start with premises if i can help it. Now, i dont think there is any god of any sort; I see no reason at all to think that there is.

But see, that doenst mean that my mind is closed to it; i dont believe in flying saucers either but i wont deny my eyes if one lands.

The way that people decide to believe in god, then find confirmation for that belief might convince me too but for one important detail. The same method works for confirming faith in every religion...if it always pointed the same way, i'd say that really is something! but as it is, i think something entirely different is going on, best explained in terms of human psychology, not something so grand as Contact with the Creator of the Universe who wants a personal relationship.

That is just too much fantasy and narcissism for me.

i appreciate the sincerity of your wish to share testimony, and please take what i say as sincere also, and not in any way intended as a put down or to poke at your faith.

I assume you want others to examine their ideas; above are some suggestions about how you might examine yours.

samcarternx said:

Read the rest of my posts and you will find not a formal proof that God exists, but a starting point that led me to Savior the Anointed One. He led me to my Maker whose purpose became my purpose. I am satisfied. love-sam

Click to expand...

Let me give you a hint, if you dont mind? If you actually want to get your ideas thru to atheists, that is.

Couple of hints. One is, dont try to talk science, unless you know what you are talking about. It just puts everything you say in a bad light.

here is another.

When you say things like ".....Savior the Anointed One....." it comes across to me as glassy eyed mantra chanting. Makes my skin crawl and its the last thing Id want to be part of.

Cant you just say 'god' or "jesus"?

I mean, you know, say what you like, but i think you dont know how it sounds to others.

ps. i am never satisfied. someone says he is satisfied he has the answers, i figure they are are way too easy to satisfy.