Serving Zion
Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
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It was not God's cruelty though (look at Matthew 27, especially verses 22-26).
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It was not God's cruelty though (look at Matthew 27, especially verses 22-26).Still God sacrificing his exclusive Son is cruel.
Good questions. There is clearly more to the story because what little there is in the traditional belief leaves much to be desired.1- lets suppose he he has dual nature. when jesus comes back will he have dual nature and worship the father too?
2- Satan told Jesus that God [Whome is also jesus according to christian belief] gave him the authority over all nations
Luke 4:6-7 (NIV)
6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Why did Jesus give the authority to satan and then black mail jesus to worship him in exchange of giving jesus the authority over all nations?
1- lets suppose he he has dual nature.
when jesus comes back will he have dual nature and worship the father too?
Satan told Jesus that God [Whome is also jesus according to christian belief] gave him the authority over all nations
Luke 4:6-7 (NIV)
6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Why did Jesus give the authority to satan and then black mail jesus to worship him in exchange of giving jesus the authority over all nations?
1- lets suppose he he has dual nature. when jesus comes back will he have dual nature and worship the father too?
2- Satan told Jesus that God [Whome is also jesus according to christian belief] gave him the authority over all nations
Luke 4:6-7 (NIV)
6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Why did Jesus give the authority to satan and then black mail jesus to worship him in exchange of giving jesus the authority over all nations?
Wait so there is no trinity?
John 14:30
30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,
1- lets suppose he he has dual nature. when jesus comes back will he have dual nature and worship the father too?
2- Satan told Jesus that God [Whome is also jesus according to christian belief] gave him the authority over all nations
Luke 4:6-7 (NIV)
6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Why did Jesus give the authority to satan and then black mail jesus to worship him in exchange of giving jesus the authority over all nations?
Still God sacrificing his exclusive Son is cruel.
1- lets suppose he he has dual nature. when jesus comes back will he have dual nature and worship the father too?
2- Satan told Jesus that God [Whome is also jesus according to christian belief] gave him the authority over all nations
Luke 4:6-7 (NIV)
6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Why did Jesus give the authority to satan and then black mail jesus to worship him in exchange of giving jesus the authority over all nations?
Still God sacrificing his exclusive Son is cruel.
If I say to you that I'll give you a million dollars if you bow down to me, that isn't blackmail. I'm taking nothing away from you.Thats black mail right here.
For example if I give you my Bag and You tell me "Your bag was given to me and I will not return it to you until you bow down to me" thats sound like a threat to God almighty. Not to mention according to the bible It was satan who killed God on the Cross through entering Judas and Jesus wished that Judas would not have been born
Mark 14:21
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
Luke 22:3
And the chief priests and scribes were looking for a way to put Jesus to death; for they feared the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas Iscariot,who was one of the Twelve.
I am bit confused about Jesus actions and Satan's threat to Jesus
Bow down to worship me ----> I will give you the world which you gave me
that doesn't seem logical at all
First of all, I am not all-knowing - I do not claim to understand all the mysteries of the Lord. However, and I know a lot of people do not agree with me on this, I believe that Jesus was God in flesh, but I also believe that he was trying to set an example us. There is a duel-nature. But he was still God in flesh.Wasn't according to you Jesus had dual nature.
If we assume Jesus is both man and God at the same time and he needed to pray to God [Who is also him self] to take the cup of death from him not according to His will but the Will of the father [Who is also him].
Doesn't that mean when he returns his human nature will worship his 2nd divine nature?
So there is no trinity make sense.
Still God sacrificing his exclusive Son is cruel.
It seems God had more sons in the bible :
Exodus 4:22
Then tell Pharaoh that this is what the LORD says: 'Israel is My firstborn son,
Exodus 4:23
and I told you to let My son go so that he may worship Me. But you have refused to let him go, so I will kill your firstborn son!'"
Most Christians don't subscribe to the Penal Substitution theory of the Atonement. (c.f. Theories of the Atonement).
-CryptoLutheran
Well, the way is narrow...
I realize the winking emoji means you probably aren't being entirely serious. But even if suggesting this as should be recognized as deeply problematic, as it suggests that our salvation is ultimately up to us getting our theological t's crossed and i's dotted properly. Now, as a Lutheran, that's certainly a problem as the material principle of the Evangelical (Lutheran) Reformation is the doctrine that we are freely justified by God's grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone. To present any human effort as a necessary contribution on our part--even the contribution of "believing the right things"--means that our justification is not a free gift, but a thing to be earned through our own effort and merit.
I don't know how your tradition deals with that, but again as a Lutheran that is a problem, because it amounts to a fundamental rejection of the Gospel as Gospel.
That aside, the problems of Penal Substitution have been discussed many times before, not least of which is the quite valid criticism that if Penal Substitution is treated as a literal understanding of what transpired on the cross, and is taken as the exclusive, or even dominant, understanding of Christ's atoning work then the essence of what is being communicated is that God is first and foremost angry, vindictive, and cruel; and Christ's work centers chiefly in the act of appeasing and abating the vindictiveness and cruelty of God. In other words, taken to its natural course, and as popularly conceived, Penal Substitution says that the thing we are being saved from is, in fact, God Himself.
I'll leave you to consider why that might be a problem.
-CryptoLutheran
Why is there a problem? Vindictive? To what, sin? Of course. Cruel? To what? Imperfection? Of course. Angry? Over what? Evil? Of course. "Give her double the torment she gave you." "To hate evil -that is wisdom." Do you not understand that He would be wise in hating us? We are, after all, evil, right? We needed a Savior, right? We didn't earn it, right? That's why God making a way is referred to as mercy and grace. These are both things that acknowledge the unworthiness of the recipient, as in, it would be justified if He did not give it to us. "There is no one good, no, not one." Is God wrong in saying this? "Who has given to Me that I should repay him?" Is God wrong in saying this? "They have altogether become worthless." Is God wrong in saying this? "Unless you repent you will all perish." Is God wrong in saying this? "saving them from, in fact, God Himself." Yes. A righteous, holy, and justified God that doesn't exist for us, but us for Him, and we screwed it up, and He doesn't have to love us.
"What?! Doesn't have to love me?! GOD IS LOVE. HE HAS TO LOVE EVERYONE."
No. There is no Bible verse saying God has to love everyone or that God loves everyone the same or that God does nothing but love everyone or that when God loved people He continued to love the world to salvation. In fact, there is no real reason to believe that the love we consider to be love has anything to do with the character of God, seeing as the Bible teaches that in our flesh we are cut off from the Holy One and blinded to His face. "But the fruit of the Spirit is kindness! And God described Himself as kind." That doesn't mean He has to be kind. We don't deserve grace. We can't earn grace. We aren't worthy of grace. We will never be worthy of grace. He has chosen to be gracious. It isn't due from Him. If He was ever against us, it would be righteousness because He would be good for condemning us. He would be justified in tormenting us. He would be right in hating us. It would be love for Him, whatever He chooses to do because God is love. He isn't bound by a personal sense of propriety or any culture's judgment of His ways. We are evil. Forgive me if I am wrong, but that's why Jesus died on the cross, because we were evil. He made a way when there was no way to bring us to Himself. He is the One who makes us worthy. He is the One who withholds His righteous hand. And He was justified by the fall of Adam. And He was justified by our sins. In fact, all of His judgments are right. So when He creates you, or someone else, or Satan, and dooms them to an eternity of torment and pain, does He do it because He is cruel or because He is right? He is right. He is justified. He is holy and to be feared. Common Christianity has no reverence for God. But their lip service will not save them from the sins they have sown, that's the meaning of "daith without deeds is dead." Israel often thought that they could live as they pleased, ignorant of the laws of God, because they called themselves descendants of Abraham. But the promise was for his Seed, and his Seed is the Holy Spirit, and those who know God obey God.
But I would also that we remember the thief on the cross. It's not like he was worried about being baptized, understanding what TULIP stands for, or wondering whether or not he was going to be faithful in going to mass, and Jesus still saved him because in essence he was trusting in Jesus as his only way to God, regardless if what his understanding of the blood was, or whatever you want to say about it. So God works with us, but we must be careful because, "He who does not sow with me scatters." "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
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