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Does not help out your cause.It is not difficult to apprehend the passages you cited. In Heb 6, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because they are "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ. The Greek verb tenses are present tense - "and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (NIV) The fact that they are still engaged in such actions, demonstrates that they have not repented since they are still engaged in the sin of crucifying and disgracing grace. Where there is no repentance it is thus impossible to renew them repentance.
The same principle applies in Heb 10 - IF we go on SINNING WILLFULLY...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Continuous, habitual sin in the life of the believer that is not repented of results in no forgiveness and spiritual death.
Very familiar with apokatastasis.If you want to learn, I suggest you study the doctrine of apokatastasis. I have studied this subject for years and there are many factors to consider which are too lengthy to discuss here. You may want to do your own due diligence and arrive at your own conclusions.
The Mosaic covenant was about obedience to God’s Law. Obey and you would be part of the nation of Israel with the blessings of fruitful harvest, a home without disease, and plenty of children. Reject God and His Law you were put outside the camp and with that the curses. The capital punishment according to the Law was to remove the wickedness from the camp or nation of Israel. They were covenant breakers and as such were deprived of their very lives.Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Earth is creation which is temporal. The seen. Heaven is out of space and time which is eternal. The unseen.Really? Where does it say that? If find your reasoning to be quite imaginative.
Those were all temporal chastisements meted out by the church or by apostles.
Says nothing of what happens after the GWT Judgement.
The blood of Christ they rejected in this temporal world? Is that not the purpose of the GWT Judgement in Revelation 20 and as Jesus describes in Matthew 25?
Why have a Judgement at all?
Yes Christ died for mankind that we should be reconciled in the blood, His Blood, of the New Covenant. Yet as I posted the passages from Hebrews, those who reject Christ make His blood to no effect trampling the Son of God under foot.
The verse does not state all people will be reconciled.You avoid explaining how God will reconcile all to him.
All means all. That is the simple meaning of the verse which you are forced to modify in order to fit into the false teaching of eternal torment. Every knee and every tongue will acknowledge Jesus as Lord but you have to disavow that in order to fit your belief system.
Where is the mention of those in the Lake of Fire will do this?"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/vnt/philippians-2.html
"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."
"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).
"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."
"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"
"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.
"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"
(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)
"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":
https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ka/mptw
"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html
"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:
" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)
"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:
The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.
(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
The issue is the very blood of Christ is rejected. The blood of the New Covenant.Does the blood of Christ shed for the lost ever lose its power?
The very blood they rejected.Clearly His blood is of no effect to those who "count it an unholy thing" (Heb.10:29). They need to repent & confess their sins for them to be washed away by His blood (1 Jn.1:7,9).
Because once you go “unfeeling terminator machine or sadist” and refer to God ignoring He is Righteous Judge and Holy, the argument has hit rock bottom.
I’ll add that given the answers you present, why would a loving God let anyone suffer even a nanosecond in the Lake of Fire? Why not just hand out get out of jail free cards on Judgement Day?
Why all that seals, trumpets and vials of Wrath before then indiscriminately killing billions over a 7 year period? Why punishment at all?
CS Lewis is right. Everyone in the Lake of Fire ends up there because they chose to be there.
Your position is those who do not believe the Blood of Christ forgives all sins, somehow will come to do so after a few rounds of punishment in the Lake of Fire.
Rejected. They reject Christ and His sacrifice. That is why those who do so are judged. If they did not reject Christ then there would be no need for Judgment.
Where is the mention of those in the Lake of Fire will do this?
Why is there judgement in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20?
John 3: NASB
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.” (NASB)
Indeed Christ came so no one would perish. Then immediately following this we see those who believe will not be condemned and those who don’t believe have been condemned already. That is those who reject the Grace of God.
Hebrews 6: NASB
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Hebrews 10: NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The verse does not state all people will be reconciled.
In Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 we have a final Judgment. There is no indication of a later parole. Yes God is Love but He is also Holy and will Judge.
Where is the mention of those in the Lake of Fire will do this?
Why is there judgement in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20?
There's still the issue of those who do not enter the rest of Christ. Meaning covenant rejectors. The very means of their salvation was or will be rejected on Judgment Day.According to the apostle John they don't dive into the lake, but are cast there. No doubt no one will want to stay there for very long.
Those were all temporal tests and chastisement for those who were either already believers or chosen of God in Paul's case.Some people come to believe in Christ after a few rounds of punishment in this life. Take Saul, for example, who became the apostle Paul. Jesus said to him, Saul, Saul, it is hard for you to kick against the goads.
Some people don't find Christ till old age on their death bed, after a life of misery enslaved to sins. Like one of the criminal on a cross beside Jesus, perhaps.
Doubting Thomas had been with Jesus for years witnessing His miracles & hearing the Truth. Yet he refused to believe in His resurrection even after Jesus told him about it & his disciples witnessed to him of seeing Him risen. He denied the Lord that bought him.
Likewise with Peter who denied Him 3 times.
How many rounds of punishment did those of 1 Tim.1:19-20; 1 Cor.4:5 experience in this life?
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