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Josiah said:As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control, Catholic Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL, purpose, design, intent, objective of not conceiving. Contraceptive method, contraceptive sex.
I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.
.
Yes. By following in God's design you follow God. By using discipline we learn chastity and become more like Jesus. These are holy things to do.
Of course not.
It was CATHOLICS here that pointed out (with some emphasis) that Catholic Family Planning - Birth Control may mean have MORE sex than otherwise. IF that is false, take it up with the Catholics here (and my Catholic teachers). But however often the couple has sex, Catholic Family Planning/Birth Control is about doing it contraceptively.
.
But what makes you think that putting off desire for your spouse isNo, not the "this way is holy, this way is evil", but instead I turn to Scripture (Peter, Paul). Counting is one thing, testing another, but putting off desire requires a different level of self control -
But what makes you think that putting off desire for your spouse is
virtuous? Especially in light of the fact that Scripture forbids it.
except for prayer and fasting..
And scripture says to "come together" so you wont be tempted ...
Not, "have more self control so you wont be tempted..".
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
That's what Scripture says...
Dont deprive .. but if you do for prayer
come back together so your' not tempted.
IMO
But what makes you think that putting off desire for your spouse is
virtuous? Especially in light of the fact that Scripture forbids it.
except for prayer and fasting..
And scripture says to "come together" so you wont be tempted ...
Not, "have more self control so you wont be tempted..".
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
That's what Scripture says...
Dont deprive .. but if you do for prayer
come back together so your' not tempted.
You seem to take it a step further and add your own
ideas of what's best..
IMO
Do you think that all reasons other than prayer for not having sex with your spouse are sinful according to Paul ?
I don't know (and frankly, don't know what that has to do with the issue here). But I do know that - according to Catholics here - what is done (before, during or after) with the intent of "rendering procreation impossible" is "evil."
I guess if the intent was "to provide time for prayer" on a certain day - never a thought given to fertility or conception or Family Planning/Birth Control - then that probably would not be contraceptive. Are you saying that's what Catholic Birth Control is? It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with family planning or birth control or fertility or conception but solely with creating time for prayer, THAT is the purpose, design and intent?
Scripture makes it clear that that time of mutual concent is SO that you mayLets try that again with different highlighting:
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
You seem to take it a step further and add your own
ideas of what's best..
So do you think abstaining from sexual relations with one's spouse for any purpose other than prayer is sinful ?Josiah said:I don't know (and frankly, don't know what that has to do with the issue here). But I do know that - according to Catholics here - what is done (before, during or after) with the intent of "rendering procreation impossible" is "evil."
I guess if the intent was "to provide time for prayer" on a certain day - never a thought given to fertility or conception or Family Planning/Birth Control - then that probably would not be contraceptive. Are you saying that's what Catholic Birth Control is? It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with family planning or birth control or fertility or conception but solely with creating time for prayer, THAT is the purpose, design and intent?
We need to eat sometimes.So do you think abstaining from sexual relations with one's spouse for any purpose other than prayer is sinful ?
Probably not, but then this thread isn't about prayer, is it?
I DO think this: According to Catholics here - what is done (before, during or after) with the intent of "rendering procreation impossible" is "evil."
I guess if the intent of Catholic Family Planning - Catholic Birth Control was "to provide time for prayer" on a certain day - never with a thought given to fertility or conception or Family Planning and Birth Control - then that probably would not be contraceptive. and the RCC might not consider it "evil."
Are you saying that's what Catholic Birth Control is? It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with family planning or birth control or fertility or conception or families or births - but solely with creating time for prayer, THAT is the purpose, design and intent?
We need to eat sometimes.
Josiah said:As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control and Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL, purpose, design, intent, objective of not conceiving. Contraceptive method, contraceptive sex.
I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.
Probably not, but then this thread isn't about prayer, is it?
I DO think this: According to Catholics here - what is done (before, during or after) with the intent of "rendering procreation impossible" is "evil."
I guess if the intent of Catholic Family Planning - Catholic Birth Control was "to provide time for prayer" on a certain day - never with a thought given to fertility or conception or Family Planning and Birth Control - then that probably would not be contraceptive. and the RCC might not consider it "evil."
Are you saying that's what Catholic Birth Control is? It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with family planning or birth control or fertility or conception or families or births - but solely with creating time for prayer, THAT is the purpose, design and intent?
.
If I follow the point being made here, it is that artificial contraception effects the in use egg and sperm; abstaining from sex reserves the use of egg and sperm.
Oh yes, thekla.. no putting off sex to care for the fam.So in that instance, eating would be sinful.
Likewise, putting off sex for an infant to breastfeed would be sinful.
Um, no.
The point made is that I know of nothing that indicates that the sole, singular purpose, design and intent of Catholic Family Planning and Birth Control is to create additional time for prayer. The Method taught by the RCC and at many Catholic parishes, if done, implemented and performed, allows for an abundant amount of sex but done contraceptively - so as to render procreation impossible (I personally would say "unlikely").
Oh yes, thekla.. no putting off sex to care for the fam.
And so in that case, "dont deny your spouse" is probably meaningless.
Dunno why God put that in there at all really.
He was probably joking around
SO, we probably sound much more intelligent if we stick
to the "this way is evil" but "this way is holy" arguments
Josiah said:As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control and Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL, purpose, design, intent, objective of not conceiving. Contraceptive method, contraceptive sex.
I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.
Probably not, but then this thread isn't about prayer, is it?
I DO think this: According to Catholics here - what is done (before, during or after) with the intent of "rendering procreation impossible" is "evil." Documents from The Catholic Church have been verbatim quoted and referenced here stating that.
I guess if the intent of Catholic Family Planning - Catholic Birth Control was "to provide time for prayer" on a certain day - never with a thought given to fertility or conception or Family Planning and Birth Control - then that probably would not be contraceptive. and the RCC might not consider it "evil."
Are you saying that's what Catholic Birth Control is? It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with family planning or birth control or fertility or conception or families or births - but solely with creating time for prayer, THAT is the purpose, design and intent?
.
It seems from your post that you think abstaining from sexual relations with one's spouse for any reason other than prayer is sinful.
.
Scripture makes it clear that that time of mutual concent is SO that you may
devote yourselves to prayer.
I have added what?
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