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Filia Mariae

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Cobalt Blue said:
Got any evidence to back up this "fact"?
Yup, see my ealier post.


Explain how not having children by wearing a condom does this and not having children by abstaining from sex doesn't. And I doubt every couple would agree that going for weeks at a time without sex every month is "beautiful".
If you are interested in hearing the experiences of people using NFP, come to OBOB and ask. You might be surprised.


Can you back up any of these wild claims with evidence? And why the heck would homosexuals need contraception?! How does being free to have sex without having children denegrate women?!
I will let him reply to you, since I don't want to speak for him. What he is generally driving at is that contraception separates sex from procreation, making contracepted sex no different than homosexual sex. It denigrates women because it makes them sex objects instead of bearers of new life.
 
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praying

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suppose it is the woman iniating the sex act?
 
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Filia Mariae

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mhatten said:
suppose it is the woman iniating the sex act?
Then the issue of self-respect come into play. Do I respect myself as God created me- the bearer of new life, created to receive that gift and offer it back to God as I raise my child to serve Him? Or do I cheapen this act of participation in God's inner life to be just a pleasurable exchange and reject the opportunity to act in God's image and likeness?
 
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praying

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These are heady issues, that not being Catholic I haven't thought about.

What about the scenario I described of a couple who is financially and physically able to have any amount children but decides that x number is enough. Are you as Catholics obligated to continue procreation until the body naturally stops the process?
 
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Filia Mariae

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They are obligated to be open to conception. That doesn't mean they have to try to conceive every month. There is no set list of "this counts as reason to use NFP, this doesn't" because it is going to vary from couple to couple. Each couple has to discern every month whether or not they are called to try and conceive.
 
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Cobalt Blue

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Thank you for the reply Carly

**** I accidently pressed the back button deleting my whole post

Interesting, I didn't know that, and I almost posted saying you were wrong (forgot to square the feet, math was never my strong point ). But remember that in most parts of the world our population is still increasing exponentially, which will mean A LOT more people very soon. Also, it is not the amount of space we take up that is the problem, but that amount of waste we produce and the harm we do to the environment. While the west may not be making as many babies as the rest of the world, we produce the vast majority of pollution and waste, so it would not be a good thing for us to start reproducing exponentially again.

I wasn't just paying attention to isolated verses either, and still didn't get that impression. The pornography thing has some basis because the bible condemns lust and I believe nudity (not sure though) in several places. It still seems to me that the church is just reading into it things that aren't there.

As to heliocentrism,
Even if the church doesn't claim to have authority to teach those kinds of things these days, they certainly did back then or they wouldn't have threatned Galileo. They even used the bible to back up their position!
Don't get me wrong, I applaud the church for changing that, but either way you have to admit that church was wrong in some way. I only wish the church would be more open to change in spiritual matters. But then of course the same thing might happen to it that happened to protestants, with everyone and his dog starting a new denomination, it is indeed a tough situation

The first thing I learned in AP psychology (I will never forget it because the teacher drilled it into our heads soooo many times) was that correlation does not determine causation. Just like the fact that couples who live together first have higher rates of divorce, it could very well be a third factor causing the difference. For example people who wait until marriage to have sex, and then do not use artificial birth control, are usually very religious and very opposed to the idea of divorce, and so are much less likely to even see it as an option. They are more likely to work through hard times rather that get up and leave. Let me say that I think this is one positive aspect of religion and I plan to go into marriage with this very mind set (albeit for different reasons).

I'll end this post by saying that I still don't get what the huge importance of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], and I probably never will. I really doubt that using a condom takes much away from the sexual experience for most people, and few testimonies won't change my mind. My cold analytical mind ( ) values statistics much more than personal anecdotes.

Well, I look forward to your reply!
 
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Filia Mariae

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Cobalt Blue said:
Thank you for the reply Carly

**** I accidently pressed the back button deleting my whole post
I hate it when I do that!


The point is that the world is not overpopulated, and the amount of waste we produce has to do with our lifestyle, not the number of people. I assure you that you and I produce more waste than 10 people in Nigeria.


Lust is the turning of someone into a sexual object, which is what contraception does, turning the object of sex into pleasure.

Please read this about Galileo:
http://www.catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

The I know correlation doesn't imply causation. But it also doesn't disprove causation. Contraception is part of a lifestyle which often results in divorce. It's not contraception alone, its the whole mindset and lifestyle.
 
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Cobalt Blue

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The point is that the world is not overpopulated, and the amount of waste we produce has to do with our lifestyle, not the number of people. I assure you that you and I produce more waste than 10 people in Nigeria.
But my point is that it will be soon if we continue to reproduce at these levels - exponential growth, I assume you have seen the graphs. And yes, in addition to slowing down our reproductive rates, we need to adjust our lifestyles so that they are less wasteful and more friendly toward the environment.

Lust is the turning of someone into a sexual object, which is what contraception does, turning the object of sex into pleasure.
No, the exact same thing is happening as in using NFP, sex without reproduction. The only difference is in one case the male [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in the woman and in the other he [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in a latex sac. Neither is fool proof so, God could still cause them to have a baby if he wanted, let's say by making the condom break.

Please read this about Galileo:
I will read that a little later, as I don't want to risk losing this post by doing something stupid again. I assume it will point out the fact that Galileo wrote a satirical book that kind of made fun of the church and that was what made the church so mad. Alright, I'll give you that point

I know correlation doesn't imply causation. But it also doesn't disprove causation. Contraception is part of a lifestyle which often results in divorce. It's not contraception alone, its the whole mindset and lifestyle.
Ok then! So contraception isn't the problem, it is peoples mind sets. Then it is not contraception that has to go, it is is poeple's attitudes that need to to change. I agree. But i also think that if people want to live a life lie that, it is their choice and if it works for them, go for it. It is not for me however.
 
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Filia Mariae

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Personally, I don't think we'll be around for that long but....

If God commands us to do or not do something, He has a reason and provisions.


No NFP respects the design of the body. Your body does not come with a latex appendage. A woman's body does naturally come with infertile times. NFP respects this. You logic of "God could give them a baby if He wanted" is faulty. I could shoot you and say "Yeah but God could have stopped me if He wanted."


No both act and intent matter. Contraception and the contraceptive mentality are both the problem.
 
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Cobalt Blue

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Aright, I just read the Galileo article, and it indeed made the point I predicted, and also made an interesting point that the church never claimed it's condemnation of Galileo's work was infalible. I never knew this, so another point to you

Still I must point out that the argument used by the pope (I believe something like: God could have created a geocentric solar system that appeared heliocentric), while an interesting philisophical point, goes against the very foundations of science and Galileo was right to critisize it. He should have done so in a more tactful way however.
 
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Cobalt Blue

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Personally, I don't think we'll be around for that long but....
We certainly won't be around very long if have that kind of mentality

What is with this Catholic obsession with what is "natural"? From my point of view, the human body is the imperfect result of billions of years of evolution and can be improved upon.

No both act and intent matter. Contraception and the contraceptive mentality are both the problem.
No, the problem is that many people are only looking for instant gratification and are not looking at the long term. Contraception may be an important part of this lifestyle, but it is also useful to couples who just don't want to have children. And believe, there are some people who shouln't. Why should they not be aloud intimacy?
 
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Filia Mariae

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Cobalt Blue said:
What is with this Catholic obsession with what is "natural"? From my point of view, the human body is the imperfect result of billions of years of evolution and can be improved upon.
Nope, the human body was perfect before the fall. It will not be perfected again until we are raised. (and I am not a creationist so this is not an anti-evolution argument).

We respect the natural because that is the way God made it. You can't improve on God. If He wanted you to have a latex appendage, you would.

a) NFP works. It is not the rhythm method.
b) No one has a "right" to sex. It is a gift. No one needs sex to survive.
 
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Cobalt Blue

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Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here, because I obviously don't believe any of this. I don't beleive there is any such thing as "perfection" in the real world. Most people just use the term for the way they think things should be. This obviously varies from person to person. One person's perfect woman might not be anothers.

which reminds me of a post I forgot to respond to

I already adressed contraceptions link to this and the correlation/causation fallacy so I will move on to the rest. Feminism was never pro-promiscuity from what I understand. And there is a difference between sexual promiscuity and being open about sexuality.

Also, I doubt that men care nearly as much about the rediculous standards of the fashion industry and pop culture as women think they do. My ideal woman (physically) looks nothing like the image promoted by the media. I have to say you are largely right about the media and popular culture. Personally I despise most aspects of pop culture fot his and many other reasons (the terrible excuse for "music" it tries to shove on us. MTV must die!!! ). Once again I'll say we have to change people's attitudes. Contraception may make sexual promiscuity easier, but taht is not reason enough to condemn it completely imo. It also serves a ligitimate purpose for married couples who do not want any more children (or any children at al) but still want to enjoy sexual intimacy. It should be up to the couple to decide waht method they want to use. If they feel artificial birthcontrol takes away from their intimacy, by all means they should use NFP. If they don't however, than I can see nother wrong with the good old condom.

Carly said:
a) NFP works. It is not the rhythm method.
b) No one has a "right" to sex. It is a gift. No one needs sex to survive.
No method of birth control except abstinence is fool proof.
Sure we have a "right" to sex, we have a "right" to do whatever we are able to do, when it comes down to it. "Rights" are an artificial concept inveneted to tell people what they are and are not aloud to do in society. Generally, I beleive our "rights" should end when they infringe on those of others. We should act kindly and responsibly.
 
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Anovah

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Eucharista said:
the western world is not replacing itself.
Correct. It's not replacing itself, it's growing.

Eucharista said:
You can fit every single family and human being on this earth inside of the state of texas with a two story house and a small front and back yard. fact.


fallacy- the world is over populated.
Fallacy - your reasoning and understanding of overpopulation. You equate the issue of overpopulation with how much space the human body takes up. If we were to continue your reasoning we could not only fit everyone in texas, but we could probably fit them all in houston, sholder to shoulder. You seem to make a reference to a need for a home so we would just need to build a big enough sky scrapper in houston, right?

Wrong.

The problem with overpopulation is in the relationship between how many people there are vs. the resources our planet can provide. Do you know what happens to soil when you overfarm? Or when there is no fresh water supply? At this point, natures resources are inadequate to support our dense populations. To say otherwise is to simply make yourself feel warm and cozy.

So now that we have everybody in texas, where do they get their food from? Where does their garbage go? Sewage? Do you have any idea how much fresh water would be required? All of a sudden texas feels kinda small.

Contraception is an invaluable tool when it comes to overpopulation.


Eucharista said:
The fatc is, that sin nature is making it difficult for people in certain countries to survive.
So wait...you do agree there is a problem??? Perhaps sin nature creates the problem of overpopulation. But it is still a problem.

Eucharista said:
There is no population explosion and never will be. God knows everyone before they are born and will care for them as long as we cooperate with Him.
Yes...put your head in the sand an repeat a thousand times "God will provide, god will provide, god will provide"

Listen, there is a certain amount of thinking and acting people need to do for themselves. This philosophy is dangerous as you are not using any forethought in relationship to your actions. You DO effect your environment.

Vasectomies place an actual barricade as well (instead of the barricade being external, it is internal). Do you have the same problem with vasectomies?



I agree with the latter. The man who does not work does not eat, and the man who does not build a shelter, freezes. The man who does not think about the children he brings into this world, will overpopulate it. Doing our part would be to be aware of these things and act accordingly.


I have a problem with the further statement however. "God will take care of you no matter how many children you have"??? I think there are orphanages full of kids who will disagree with you. Have you ever heard of neglect (and that is one example mind you)? You must DECIDE how many children to have so that neglect will not happen. God is the spiritual, you are the physical. It is YOU who must act, not God.


Eucharista said:
The only reason contraception is here is for sex on demand and the denagration of women and men
The ONLY reason? Really? Please rethink this and tell me if you come to the same conclusion. I'm confident a moment of thought will reveal other reasons.

In your honest opinion, what do you think would happen if all forms of contraception were removed from this earth? Would the population grow? decrease? Why?

Eucharista said:
but what do I know?
Only what you allow yourself to.
 
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Filia Mariae

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You don't know much about feminism then. Read up a little on Betty Friedan, Margaret Sanger and the rest.

We will ahve to disagree I guess because we don't agree what "rights" are and where they come from.
 
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A

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Cobalt Blue,

Allow me to first link you to some Scriptural verses that oppose contraception, and then the writings of the early Christians on why they opposed contraception. You will see that they are mainly on religious grounds, but hey, at least the Catholic Church is being consistent, right?

http://scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html Verses that oppose contraception.

Early Church Fathers quotes......

 
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