Continuing Anglican vs. ACNA

I agree with your statement regarding individuals.

BTW, how many of the 38 provinces allow ordination of women? So they have all broken the Communion? Really?

Albion said:

Or it's those churches and provinces which went ahead and ordained women on their own initiative who broke communion.

In any case, the idea that individuals can break the status of full communion between church bodies is questionable IMO.

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One problem I am currently having is this--

• When I attend a TEC service, I feel out of sorts because I am too conservative.
  
• When I attend an ACNA service, I feel out of sorts because I am too liberal.

I really hate this conservative/liberal labeling.

Anybody have any suggestions.

...Scottish Monk

Scottish Monk said:

One problem I am currently having is this--

• When I attend a TEC service, I feel out of sorts because I am too conservative.
  
• When I attend an ACNA service, I feel out of sorts because I am too liberal.

I really hate this conservative/liberal labeling.

Anybody have any suggestions.

...Scottish Monk

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Yes my little Scottish Monk brother - we have all types in our community I just worship in my way within my boundaries of the Anglican Communion and don't let the method being used by others get in the way. Good to see you here brother.

gordonhooker said:

Yes my little Scottish Monk brother - we have all types in our community I just worship in my way within my boundaries of the Anglican Communion and don't let the method being used by others get in the way. Good to see you here brother.

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Gordon...

Thanks for the encouragement. When I look at the resources in the Anglican Communion and step away, and then look at the lack of resources in the ACNA . . . Well, there is not much of a comparison. The same can be said, only more so, about the resources of the Roman Catholic church, once you climb a few gates and sneak in a few doors.

Yeah . . . identifying and practicing our own rule is key to the spiritual life for those of us with a monkish (contemplative) bent. Rubbing elbows, on the other hand, can be a bit tricky. We are just wired differently--at least I am finding that is the case for myself.

Thanks again.

...Scottish Monk

Scottish Monk said:

Gordon...

Thanks for the encouragement. When I look at the resources in the Anglican Communion and step away, and then look at the lack of resources in the ACNA . . . Well, there is not much of a comparison.

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I'm not much of an advocate for either church (TEC or ACNA), but I wouldn't sell ACNA short. TEC is much larger, it's true, but the average parish attendance on Sunday is about 66 and falling every year. Churches and even cathedrals are being closed across the country, and most dioceses are in financial trouble. The ACNA is only three years old and is growing steadily. I have been impressed, although not entirely in a positive sense,at how it is raking in converts from every other denomination you can shake a stick at. While it is working from behind, it is working out. Who knows what the comparison will look like in ten years?

mark1 said:

10 years is not a long time at all . . . might take another decade or two.

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As for ACNA's tinkering under the hood. Yes, the timeline should have hash marks of decades, centuries. I agree with with some of the earlier posts in this thread. Many who have joined the ACNA band wagon may return to TEC or go elsewhere. ACNA clergy do not seem to have answers to specific questions about where ACNA is going, or how to get there. Aligning and partnering will probably be the road ahead.

Again, let say, all of the tinkering under the hood is frustrating for those of us in the pews. Maybe that is the way it has always been in Christiandom.

...Scottish Monk

Albion said:

. . . The ACNA is only three years old and is growing steadily. I have been impressed, although not entirely in a positive sense, at how it is raking in converts from every other denomination you can shake a stick at. While it is working from behind, it is working out. Who knows what the comparison will look like in ten years?

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Yes, there is a mystery at work in ACNA. Christians are running to ACNA parishes--leaving other parishes, congregations, traditions. These people carry bags of hopes and expectations.

Let us pray that the Holy Spirit is at work here.

...Scottish Monk

Local churches should not be about stealing sheep. Rather they should be about
reaching the unchurched. Being proud of "converts" from other denominations is very unChristian IMHO. ACNA needs to understand a bit more about accepting and working with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

ACNA may learn, it may not. However, IMHO, we do not need another denominational group who thinks it has all the answers and those of others in the Christian family need conversion.

Albion said:

I have been impressed, although not entirely in a positive sense,at how it is raking in converts from every other denomination you can shake a stick at.

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mark1 said:

Local churches should not be about stealing sheep. Rather they should be about
reaching the unchurched. Being proud of "converts" from other denominations is very unChristian IMHO. ACNA needs to understand a bit more about accepting and working with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

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Trust me, they feel that they are fleeing apostasy--entirely on their own. No one has to steal these sheep.

But even that doesn't adequately explain the situation. You immediately attack the victims of TEC as that ship sinks, but I was thinking more of the many non-Anglicans who have come, on their own, to ACNA because of issues that I would think you would value--sacraments, dignified worship, etc.

I find it ironic for conservatives that have left TEC for decades to form their own churches to now point out how TEC is losing membership and becoming too liberal. That you consider ACNA members "the victims of TEC as that ship sinks" speaks volumes. ACNA has done what Protestant groups have done for centuries. When there are major differences with the decisions of the national church leadership, those who disagree band together and leave, if they have sufficient numbers, and outside groupings supporting such schism. It also speaks volumes that you consider those who are entering ACNA as those "who are fleeing apostasy". This has been the calling card of marginal groups in the past. If ACNA is to be viable, then it must seek to bring in the unchurched.
To make believe that ACNA draws folks from other churches because of the sacraments is a strange idea at best.

This discussion/movement has been happening for many years now. ACNA is simply a byproduct of the struggles within denominations as individualism reigns in this world.
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And yes, I have great sympathy for those who have been attacked by the national Church, and those who have had to choose between staying with a church with which they have major issues or picking up, leaving, and finding another place to worship.

For me, the one reason for being Anglican is that the Anglican Communion is the English orthodox Church. Once the international identity is denied or lost, we simply have an array of small denominations. The strength of Anglicanism is in the Communion. Perhaps Anglicanism will have a bright future with two Communions; I rather doubt it. It seems more likely that the new ABC will work with GAFCON over the next decade and the Communion will continue. As for ACNA, give it a decade or two and their will be those who disagree with leadership and break it up into smaller groups, probably over women's ordination, but just as possibly over some new issue of the day.
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Here in coastal South Carolina, we are especially sensitive to these issues, with our six Anglican bishops (or is now only five). Our bishop will come to our parish this week for confirmations and will address the clergy conference at the beginning of next month. South Carolina and it churches will be much different by the end of 2013. Many will split from TEC in the next few months, no matter what decision the bishop makes. I suspect the diocese may cease to exist, being merged with Upper Carolina.

Albion said:

Trust me, they feel that they are fleeing apostasy--entirely on their own. No one has to steal these sheep.

But even that doesn't adequately explain the situation. You immediately attack the victims of TEC as that ship sinks, but I was thinking more of the many non-Anglicans who have come, on their own, to ACNA because of issues that I would think you would value--sacraments, dignified worship, etc.

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A much, much stronger case can be made for the proposition that the ACNA founders wanted to remain part of the AC and TEC but were forced out in various ways by a TEC that was, and is, quite willing to go it alone (with its 18 or so overseas affiliates) if the Anglican Communion tries to keep it from going its own way doctrinally while still a member. IOW, communion in name only.

mark1 said:

ACNA has done what Protestant groups have done for centuries. When there are major differences with the decisions of the national church leadership, those who disagree band together and leave, if they have sufficient numbers, and outside groupings supporting such schism.

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I totally get this. I'm American in the UK. Within my neighborhood, there are charismatic, Anglo-Catholic, and low evangelical Church of England congregations. Despite our major differences in worship and in some beliefs, we are all still part of the same communion.

Yet back in the US every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a new idea about how Christianity should be practiced starts up a church of his own. It is so far from what the New Testament describes as the church.

If TEC/ACNA would look to England and see how different movements are being encouraged to flourish within a unified CofE, perhaps they could learn something.

mark1 said:

I find it ironic for conservatives that have left TEC for decades to form their own churches to now point out how TEC is losing membership and becoming too liberal. . . . . .

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Things would be very different if no one left to begin with. If conservatives keep leaving, the logical consequence is a more liberal TEC.

I find it ironic for conservatives that have left TEC for decades to form their own churches to now point out how TEC is losing membership

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Anna Scott said:

Things would be very different if no one left to begin with. If conservatives keep leaving, the logical consequence is a more liberal TEC.

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The first mistake there was in assuming that the great losses TEC has experienced all switched over to some other Anglican church, such as ACNA or one of the Continuing churches. In fact, that isn't what has happened.

Yes, they've gained while TEC has declined, but it's not that these Anglican churches have caused the drop in membership in TEC. Most of those membership losses are people who've just given up, decided that their church left them, cannot abide the new theologies, etc.

Most of them have gone nowhere in particular, and many of them still consider themselves to be Episcopalians...just Episcoplians who are now unaffiliated.

Albion said:

The first mistake there was in assuming that the great losses TEC has experienced all switched over to some other Anglican church, such as ACNA or one of the Continuing churches. In fact, that isn't what has happened.

Yes, they've gained while TEC has declined, but it's not that these Anglican churches have caused the drop in membership in TEC. Most of those membership losses are people who've just given up, decided that their church left them, cannot abide the new theologies, etc.

Most of them have gone nowhere in particular, and many of them still consider themselves to be Episcopalians...just Episcoplians who are now unaffiliated.

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Still, don't you think the loss of conservatives, where ever they are, leaves fewer to object to a liberal swing?

Anna Scott said:

Still, don't you think the loss of conservatives, where ever they are, leaves fewer to object to a liberal swing?

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Leaves fewer? Sure. It would be hard to argue against that proposition. But how much of the problem owes to that? Less than is often thought. There is no doubt that more former Episcopalians have just "dropped out" than joined other Anglican churches. Of course, some have also gone to the Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist or other Protestant churches, too.

However, there's also another factor to consider. You said "leaves feweer to object..." While that is obviously correct as it stands, a lot of people do not find it edifying or useful to have to be always having to object in a futile effort to stop those with all the power from changing the church and punishing those who object.

Albion said:

Leaves fewer? Sure. It would be hard to argue against that proposition. But how much of the problem owes to that? Less than is often thought. There is no doubt that more former Episcopalians have just "dropped out" than joined other Anglican churches. Of course, some have also gone to the Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist or other Protestant churches, too.

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I'm not disagreeing with that.

Albion said:

However, there's also another factor to consider. You said "leaves feweer to object..." While that is obviously correct as it stands, a lot of people do not find it edifying or useful to have to be always having to object in a futile effort to stop those with all the power from changing the church and punishing those who object.

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I agree.

I'm not passing judgement on those who left. There is a breaking point for everyone in regards to spiritual conscience; and we don't really know all that goes on behind the scenes.

This post should be made into a sticky and read every day.

In the end, the Protestant idea of forming new churches as needed is the worst result of the Reformation.

TEC will continue to retain its allegiance to the Communion. It will continue to have close relationships with Lutheran (ELCA) and Methodist (UMC) churches. TEC will continue to have lots and lots of Anglo-Catholics as a fundamental part of the community. TEC will continue to ordain women. And yes, TEC will always be a home for Roman Catholics who love their traditions and cannot deal with some of their practices. TEC will continue to have a heart for the poor and disadvantaged among us. TEC leadership has made many, many mistakes.
Such things happen when one is out in the world.

Personally, I believe that the new ABC will be a major step toward resolution of some of the issues of the Communion. But nothing can stop those who want to leave and form their own Church (a very conservative and evangelical Church).
This happened around 500 (a little before), around 1000, around 1500 and now again. The Church is always in need of reformation. In the end, it is a political question. There are always those in favor of reformation and those in favor of rebellion and revolution. And always, we will all have God and Scripture on our side supporting our very human actions.

seekingsister said:

I totally get this. I'm American in the UK. Within my neighborhood, there are charismatic, Anglo-Catholic, and low evangelical Church of England congregations. Despite our major differences in worship and in some beliefs, we are all still part of the same communion.

Yet back in the US every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a new idea about how Christianity should be practiced starts up a church of his own. It is so far from what the New Testament describes as the church.

If TEC/ACNA would look to England and see how different movements are being encouraged to flourish within a unified CofE, perhaps they could learn something.

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Anna Scott said:

I'm not passing judgement on those who left. There is a breaking point for everyone in regards to spiritual conscience; and we don't really know all that goes on behind the scenes.

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I understand; I was just trying to respond to the comments as they came. One thing that maybe should be added is that, for all those who think that we should all just get along and no one should ever leave, that works--to the extent that it does--ONLY if the church in question is tolerant of diversity. Today's TEC is not one of them. It actively wants to freeze out all the traditionalists and has broken many an agreement that the latter thought had secured their place within the church even as a minority group.

mark1 said:

The Communion has many, many female priests. The Church of England is likely to have female bishops in the next couple of years. That ship has sailed. There is certainly room WITHIN the Communion for those who disagree with that position including some candidates for ABC. But there is no chance of a reversal.

We will see where we are after the first of the year. I would expect that on other issues, we may see a movement away from the liberalism of TEC. In the end, the ACNA bishops and churches will need to decide whether to rejoin the Communion.

Obviously, there will be those who will stay out. There is a long tradition within the Protestantism of cutting and running when the leadership makes decisions with which we disagree. For them, it is a matter of principle. If the leadership isn't up to snuff in their view for long enough, then there is no other choice but to form a new church group.

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mark1 said:

And those who believe that having a male priesthood is an "essential of our faith" have left the Communion. After all, essentials are defined by individuals in their personal prayer and personal understanding of Scripture.

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The Communion, in its wisdom, decided that the ordination of female priests and bishops should be up to each national church.

That is the problem. Not just with the issue of women's ordination, which I used as an example, not because I want to debate it. You can't have differing beliefs and practices about it in different parts of the AC and expect to maintaining "being in communion" in any meaningful sense.

That doesn't mean that those who don't ordain women have left the AC - that was never what was put forward. If that was the deal, I sincerely doubt they would have got consensus from all to make that change. It was presented as an issue for individual national churches to make decisions about.

This has been the trend through most of the 20th century in Anglicanism. Define things as local decisions or national decisions to avoid having to get consensus, even when it makes absolutely no sense to treat that issue locally. I find it so idiotic it is impossible to wrap my head around - how could anyone think redefining who can be ordained to apostolic succession in only some parts of the AC could work? That allowing lay presidency in some parts could work? That fornication could be ok in some places or marriage could be a different thing?

They have avoided working out any intellectually robust theological background to many of these questions, even avoided defining what that would require, because it would interfere with allowing everyone to do what they want. Now the views of the Communion are so confused it is difficult to even have a discussion about many of them.