Continuing Anglican vs. ACNA

Episcoboi · Sep 20, 2012

Well, Albion and I were having a small side discussion in another thread, and I thought I'd start this one to continue it.

I have read some little about Continuing Anglican movements, parishes, etc. And, I realize there is a lot of diversity even among churches that are Continuing Anglican. However, I was under the impression that the ACNA was also Continuing. This, it was pointed out, is not the case. I guess, I'm trying to make sense of it.

So, what are the differences between Continuing Anglican movements and the ACNA?

I just want to say "thank you" before hand to all those who can clarify this for me and can help me in my confusion.

mark46 · Sep 20, 2012

To me, the two are very different.
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Continuers broke from the Communion over female ordination and the 1979 BCP. There are many Continuing Churches today. I will let others speak about what distinguishes them and why one might chose to joining one of these in the 21st century. They apparently have no need or wish to be closely associated with the Communion. IMHO, the Continuers chose schism with Canterbury and continue in their choice. I would note that some of the Continuing churches were part of the foundation of ACNA. But for me, the concept of the two is very different.
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ACNA is something else entirely. While many disagreed with women's ordination, it was the ordination of an active homosexual bishop and refusing to abide by the wishes of the Communion that caused ACNA to form, along with the threats and law suits cast upon the conservative bishops who opposed the leadership of TEC. GAFCON, an international body with similar concerns, asked the to be leaders to form ACNA under their auspices. ACNA maintain close relations with some TEC bishops (including ours in coastal SC). ACNA also maintains close relationships with many of the primates and provinces of the Communion. Provinces representing over half of the membership of the Anglican Communion recognizes ACNA as an Anglican province.

so for me, ACNA has not abandoned the Communion. Rather, from the beginning, it has sought primates in other parts of the world whose authority they would accept. Ultimately they formed their own province with the blessing of those primates.
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So, the US has two territorial provinces that are accepted by at least half of the world's Anglicans. Of course, some primates accept both. To, those who remain outside of these two groups are different in kind; they do not accept the authority of either the US TEC primate nor the ACNA Archbishop.

Episcoboi · Sep 20, 2012

Okay, that makes sense.

Albion · Sep 20, 2012

I don't believe that it's correct to imply that ACNA is somehow IN the Anglcian Communion by the back door, although she herself likes to talk that way. Her recognition by Southern Hemisphere AC provinces does not confer membership in the AC, nor does even the establishment of American mission church in the USA which is part of, for example, the church in Rwanda make it part of the AC, or so the Archbishop of Canterbury holds. ACNA would like to be recognized as a second American province, but that hope is growing less and less likely. Otherwise, I don't know what else there is to say, Episcoboi, unless you have some specific questions.

Episcoboi · Sep 20, 2012

Albion said:
I don't believe that it's correct to imply that ACNA is somehow IN the Anglcian Communion by the back door, although she herself likes to talk that way. Her recognition by Southern Hemisphere AC provinces does not confer membership in the AC, nor does even the establishment of American mission church in the USA which is part of, for example, the church in Rwanda make it part of the AC, or so the Archbishop of Canterbury holds. ACNA would like to be recognized as a second American province, but that hope is growing less and less likely. Otherwise, I don't know what else there is to say, Episcoboi, unless you have some specific questions.

No, Albion, you explained it in the other thread. I posted this thread before you were able to respond here.

I agree with you, the ACNA, though recognized by some of the provinces of the Communion, is not part of the Communion. They are not in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury. Nor do they share in any of the other instruments of communion as far as I know.

Albion · Sep 20, 2012

Episcoboi said:
No, Albion, you explained it in the other thread. I posted this thread before you were able to respond here.

I agree with you, the ACNA, though recognized by some of the provinces of the Communion, is not part of the Communion. They are not in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury. Nor do they share in any of the other instruments of communion as far as I know.

That's right.

mark46 · Sep 20, 2012

I agree with you comments. ACNA is not IN the Communion, merely recognized by over half of it. As far as the instruments of the Communion, many of the primates do not currently participate. Until there is some movement on the impasse with GAFCON, the Communion no longer means what it once did.

However, I would note that the bishops of the Rwandan mission are now part of ACNA, per the request of the primate of Rwanda.

Albion said:
I don't believe that it's correct to imply that ACNA is somehow IN the Anglcian Communion by the back door, although she herself likes to talk that way. Her recognition by Southern Hemisphere AC provinces does not confer membership in the AC, nor does even the establishment of American mission church in the USA which is part of, for example, the church in Rwanda make it part of the AC, or so the Archbishop of Canterbury holds. ACNA would like to be recognized as a second American province, but that hope is growing less and less likely. Otherwise, I don't know what else there is to say, Episcoboi, unless you have some specific questions.

MKJ · Sep 21, 2012

mark1 said:
I agree with you comments. ACNA is not IN the Communion, merely recognized by over half of it. As far as the instruments of the Communion, many of the primates do not currently participate. Until there is some movement on the impasse with GAFCON, the Communion no longer means what it once did.

However, I would note that the bishops of the Rwandan mission are now part of ACNA, per the request of the primate of Rwanda.

Yes, I see this as a difference as well. The idea of being "in" or "out" has never been a cut and dried either or thing. Often historically there have been situations which might be called "impaired communion" which may lead to a formal and permanent separation, or be repaired, and these situations happen for all kinds of reasons and can go on for some time.

The Continuers seem to have made a fairly clear break from the AC, whereas the situation with ACNA hasn't as of yet not least because TEC is in a situation that could be described as impaired. It is conceivable (whether or not it's likely) that TEC could end up in a permanently schismatic relation with the AC while ACNA might repair their relationship.

Albion · Sep 21, 2012

The likelyhood of TEC being replaced as the US province or of a second province being for the first time permitted is extremely unlikely. All the factors work against that happening, which I suspect ACNA now realizes.

MKJ · Sep 21, 2012

Albion said:
The likelyhood of TEC being replaced as the US province or of a second province being for the first time permitted is extremely unlikely. All the factors work against that happening, which I suspect ACNA now realizes.

I tend to agree ( I tend to think the Communion is doomed), but I think both are in a state of impaired communion rather than schism. When you have people who left TEC so they could actually worship in a way consistent with the AC it is hard to see that as a hard schism. It might be accurate to say the whole communion is impaired.

Anna Scott · Sep 25, 2012

MKJ said:
I tend to agree ( I tend to think the Communion is doomed), but I think both are in a state of impaired communion rather than schism. When you have people who left TEC so they could actually worship in a way consistent with the AC it is hard to see that as a hard schism. It might be accurate to say the whole communion is impaired.

MKJ,
I think that is a reasonable assessment. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next decade.

Also, "schism" seems to depend on one's point of view.

Episcoboi · Sep 26, 2012

Anna Scott said:
MKJ,
I think that is a reasonable assessment. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next decade.

Also, "schism" seems to depend on one's point of view.

It would be a sad day indeed if the Communion were to fall apart. I know it seems to be heading that way, but I think we can work to stop that from happening.

Anna Scott · Sep 27, 2012

Episcoboi said:
It would be a sad day indeed if the Communion were to fall apart. I know it seems to be heading that way, but I think we can work to stop that from happening.

Episcoboi,

I agree. It would be very sad if the Communion fell apart. Certainly, there are many Priests and Bishops working to preserve the Communion.

Though, I disagree with many decisions of the leadership in TEC, I have chosen to remain.

I think it will all come down to just how much diversity in beliefs can be tolerated within the Communion.

Many have already reached a breaking point, including the Continuing Anglican Churches and ACNA--discussed in this thread.

This is definitely a time for prayer.

Anna

Scottish Monk · Oct 4, 2012

After six months in a ACNA parish, I must confess that I am feeling pulled back to TEC. I am just beginning to articulate this feeling. As more time passes, I may be able to speak more about this uneasiness with the ACNA.

*****

At the same time, I feel drawn toward the local Roman Catholic parish. This fall I am attending the RCIA classes. More on that later.

...Scottish Monk

mark46 · Oct 4, 2012

Perhaps, we will know more about the direction of the Communion when we have a new ABC and the reaction to him. In the end, if the Communion is broken, I will likely leave, perhaps back to the RCC, perhaps to our UMC brothers. Perhaps, I will stay with TEC, with its ties to UMC and ELCA.

For me, ACNA makes little sense, unless it is a province of the Anglican Communion. This is cannot be unless TEC is found to be impaired communion and worse.

Scottish Monk said:
After six months in a ACNA parish, I must confess that I am feeling pulled back to TEC. I am just beginning to articulate this feeling. As more time passes, I may be able to speak more about this uneasiness with the ACNA.

*****

At the same time, I feel drawn toward the local Roman Catholic parish. This fall I am attending the RCIA classes. More on that later.

...Scottish Monk

mark46 · Oct 4, 2012

IMHO, ACNA and Continuing Churches are not really major players. The major player is GAFCON. If the African and Asian primates cannot bring themselves to attend primate meetings and Lambeth, we are finished as a Communion.

To me, the TEC IS a province of the Anglican Communion. Yes, TEC is impaired in its relationship with the Communion as a whole. Yes, we have made mistakes. However, we allow bishops and primates to make mistakes. The primates and bishops must have some autonomy. The TEC differs in theological opinion from the majority of the Communion. That should NOT be sufficient to break up the Communion; but it may very well be sufficient.

Anna Scott said:
Episcoboi,

I agree. It would be very sad if the Communion fell apart. Certainly, there are many Priests and Bishops working to preserve the Communion.

Though, I disagree with many decisions of the leadership in TEC, I have chosen to remain.

I think it will all come down to just how much diversity in beliefs can be tolerated within the Communion.

Many have already reached a breaking point, including the Continuing Anglican Churches and ACNA--discussed in this thread.

This is definitely a time for prayer.

Anna

Scottish Monk · Oct 5, 2012

The current trends of disunity are very disconcerting. It almost seems each Anglican tradition (old, current, and forming) has one "prime directive" (if I may borrow a Star Trek phrase)--and that prime directive is to distance themselves from the other traditions in Scripture versions, BCP versions, liturgy, doctrine, walk and talk, and more . . . Thus while the clergy and leadership engage in some kind of free-for-all, those of us in the pews just want it all to settle down so we can worship and receive Christ through the Eucharist. In many ways, I think the growing disunity is being fed by the flames of "publish or perish" now leaping up from the various seminaries. As a retired businessman, I find myself shaking my head at all these human competitive efforts and, yes, increasing religious consumerism. Maybe I should find myself a hermitage somewhere and spend the rest of my days in silence and study.

...Scottish Monk

Anna Scott · Oct 5, 2012

Scottish Monk said:
The current trends of disunity are very disconcerting. It almost seems each Anglican tradition (old, current, and forming) has one "prime directive" (if I may borrow a Star Trek phrase)--and that prime directive is to distance themselves from the other traditions in Scripture versions, BCP versions, liturgy, doctrine, walk and talk, and more . . . Thus while the clergy and leadership engage in some kind of free-for-all, those of us in the pews just want it all to settle down so we can worship and receive Christ through the Eucharist. In many ways, I think the growing disunity is being fed by the flames of "publish or perish" now leaping up from the various seminaries. As a retired businessman, I find myself shaking my head at all these human competitive efforts and, yes, increasing religious consumerism. Maybe I should find myself a hermitage somewhere and spend the rest of my days in silence and study.

...Scottish Monk

Well, Scottish, you may be on to something with the "hermitage" idea. You would have lots of time to pray for the rest of us.

I do understand your frustration, and we are all feeling it to some extent. I have said before that if I never listened to the news (or logged on to forums,) I could live a peaceful life worshiping and serving through my local Parish.

It may not seem like it, but there are many in TEC (my Rector included) who have chosen to remain in TEC and the Anglican Communion, and work to sort out the issues rather than continue to fracture the Communion.

There are certainly Anglicans who have chosen to enter Communion with Rome. I've considered it myself; but Rome has its own set of problems.

In the end, it is a personal decision between you and our Lord. I pray that God will grant you peace and lead you where He wants you to be.

Anna

Anna Scott · Oct 5, 2012

mark1 said:
. . . .To me, the TEC IS a province of the Anglican Communion. Yes, TEC is impaired in its relationship with the Communion as a whole. Yes, we have made mistakes. However, we allow bishops and primates to make mistakes. The primates and bishops must have some autonomy. The TEC differs in theological opinion from the majority of the Communion. That should NOT be sufficient to break up the Communion; but it may very well be sufficient.

Mark1,

In my "wishful thinking," I wish all had remained in TEC and the AC to work things out. Sadly, that ship has sailed, and we are breaking apart bit by bit.

mark46 · Oct 5, 2012

Anna gives fine advice.

As my mentor taught me when I was leaving his local church, "find a church that is doing God's work and get to work". Surely, there are many parishes where you can grow spiritually and where you can help others grow. Perhaps one answer is considering moving to such a parish, or moving close to one of the seminaries. Thankfully, the internet helps us link for study if we wish. Many of the seminaries have programs for those who wish to study but choose not to go to seminary.

There is certainly a place for the cloistered life, and for spending lots of time in retreat. The question is whether we want to be active out in the world or not. We can certainly play our part praying in seclusion. The question is whether that is the life to which you are called.

IMHO, most of us Christians (especially Catholics and Anglicans) greatly prefer to be around those who agree with us. I am not sure that this path is what Jesus intended when he told us to follow Him.

Scottish Monk said:
The current trends of disunity are very disconcerting. It almost seems each Anglican tradition (old, current, and forming) has one "prime directive" (if I may borrow a Star Trek phrase)--and that prime directive is to distance themselves from the other traditions in Scripture versions, BCP versions, liturgy, doctrine, walk and talk, and more . . . Thus while the clergy and leadership engage in some kind of free-for-all, those of us in the pews just want it all to settle down so we can worship and receive Christ through the Eucharist. In many ways, I think the growing disunity is being fed by the flames of "publish or perish" now leaping up from the various seminaries. As a retired businessman, I find myself shaking my head at all these human competitive efforts and, yes, increasing religious consumerism. Maybe I should find myself a hermitage somewhere and spend the rest of my days in silence and study.

...Scottish Monk

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