Considering converting.

Oh! I also wanted to post this for you. These are articles about exorcism, but they also explain a lot about Christian cosmology, the nature of evil (does it come from God or not, etc.), where demons originate from, and all that jazz.

Exorcism — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Exorcism in the Orthodox Church — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Hope these are interesting for you.

23rd said:

Thank you both - and for the links, too -- I shall read through them!

I am aware of the Isaiah reference. I am also aware that the common theory among scholars (both biblical and secular) is that it was written about the fall of the Babylonian King and translated somewhat poorly by St Jerome.

Lucifer, outside of the bible, is primarily refered to as Satan in works of fiction - such as Paradise Lost.

Well, I've been reading the Bible.. and thinking. Well, the reason that I was considering converting was because, first and foremost, of Jesus and how I feel as though the bible has a lot of truth hidden within. I am a seeker of the truth, if you will. However, for me, personally, it is hard to find the truth from something that has passed through the hands of infallible men. There seems to be a lot of different interpretations and, I do not personally doubt, that certain things have been embellished since the time of Jesus.

I don't want to be one of the people who says "I accept Jesus as such-and-such" until I absolutely feel that way in my soul. Else, I would just be - in my opinion - making a mockery of someone else's faith and I wouldn't like to do that. Therefore, I think it is right to read, question, meditate, pray upon these things. That is why I am questioning. It is not out of disrespect, it is because I am trying to process everything..

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As for trusting the Bible. That's definitely a fair question. From what I've read, the differences between, say current Greek versions of the New Testament today with those of the 4th century are minor and trivial. I don't think making copies of something is too difficult so I doubt there'd be many/any mistakes there. As for deliberate changes people have made as they copy it, well, there's just no evidence for that.

But if its the translation into English you're questioning by all means read a range of version. I don't know the story about all versions but, I would recommend the New International and English Standard Versions as they were translated from Greek/Hebrew. I would not recommend the King James Version as it was translated from Latin (another degree of separation) and its hard to understand! I would also not recommend The Message as it is translated into VERY basic language to the point where it has possibly changed the meaning of the words.

Keep questioning!

JJ

23rd said:

Thank you both - and for the links, too -- I shall read through them!

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I really hope you find them interesting!

23rd said:

Well, I've been reading the Bible.. and thinking. Well, the reason that I was considering converting was because, first and foremost, of Jesus and how I feel as though the bible has a lot of truth hidden within. I am a seeker of the truth, if you will.

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This is a good start 23rd. I became a Xian only at the age of 22, and it was a very powerful experience because it took me so long to get there--through atheism and paganism, and later secular Bible study. (I identify so much with you!)

23rd said:

However, for me, personally, it is hard to find the truth from something that has passed through the hands of infallible men. There seems to be a lot of different interpretations and, I do not personally doubt, that certain things have been embellished since the time of Jesus.

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Yes. This was my stumbling block too (well, one of the major ones anyway). I recently wrote such a long post about this... let me see if I can find it...

Here it is: http://www.christianforums.com/t7414154/#post53399785

The end of the post is not all that relevant to you, but the beginning and sort of middle bit is (it's a long post as I said!).

I think the main thing for me in deciding I trusted the Bible was "getting to know" the ECFs and the lives of the martyrs. These people dedicated their entire lives to preserving the truth, long before the RCC rose to the heights of power it has today. They gained nothing from defending Truth. That lends an air of purity to their writings and helps me trust that they would never dare to change the Scriptures. Why would they cynically change something, and later die defending it? It just doesn't make sense to me.

What also helped me was realising that the Bible is not all there is... the Church is the pillar and ground of all truth, not the Bible (1 Timothy 3:15). Church Tradition (the liturgies, the stories of the saints' lives, the writings of the ECFs) supports Scripture, and Scripture in turn supports Church Tradition; they vouch for one another. Realising that helped me to emerge from my musty little study (where my understanding was the only one available) and start going into churches and debating with clergy, asking questions, annoying them, etc.

23rd said:

I don't want to be one of the people who says "I accept Jesus as such-and-such" until I absolutely feel that way in my soul. Else, I would just be - in my opinion - making a mockery of someone else's faith...That is why I am questioning. It is not out of disrespect, it is because I am trying to process everything..

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There are some who feel you should run headlong into Xianity and work the details out later. I get that point of view, but I also feel that everyone's different.

It took me a number of years to become a Xian for similar reasons to those you give here. The Lord made your mind and He expects you to use it; that's why in Isaiah God says, "Come, let us reason together..." and argues His points with us.

I think it's also worth noting that in EO tradition (not sure about RCC?), we believe that all religions/mythologies contain little echoes of the Truth, but only Christ's Church has been given the fullness of Truth; see Paul addressing the Athenians in Acts 17:22-23, acknowledging that their pagan piety is admirable, and then revealing the whole Truth to them.

He didn't expect them to approach God like he had initially, as a religious Jew; instead he respectfully invited them to look at God through a pagan perspective initially, showing them how the grains of Truth in their worldview fitted into the big picture of God's fully revealed Truth. From there, the Athenians were freed to make their own decision.

You have the right to the same gentle treatment from Xians. (Although I warn you you may not always get it, as you probably have already discerned... I sincerely hope you do in future...)

~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~

The thread has gone through a clean up. If your post is missing it was removed as part of the clean up. Just a reminder please keep the EC FSGs in mind when posting.

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I noticed Jasper Jackson answered some of your arguments (thanks, Jasper).

Please take a look at I Corinthians 1:17-chapter 2:16. You need to earnestly ask God to open your eyes and ears if you desire the truth in God's Word not to be hidden from you. It is encouraging that you are reading the Bible.

The Bible states "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)
Christ, in a High Priestly prayer recorded in John 17, says to the Father, "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth." (verse 17)

Regarding embellishment, which you mentioned, Proverbs 30:5-6 says "Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."

I want to address what you found offensive- I was making reference to part of Scripture about Christians are to stimulate each other to love and good deeds. Ephesians 2:10 says we were created for good works in Christ. An aside, in case of confusion... Ephesians 2:8-9 make it plain that no work of ours can save us, even faith is a gift of God, so that we cannot boast.

But apart from Christ's imputed righteousness, see Romans 3:9-20 (after the book of Acts and before I Corinthians in the New Testament). Take a look also at Isaiah 64:6-7.

You are right if you are saying God is sovereignly in control of his redemptive plan- he tells of it early on in Genesis 3:15. I did not say the Bible said the words "kicked out", however falling like lightening is an indicator Satan didn't go on his own volition. Isaiah 14:12-15 speaks of Satan's fall.

And here is Revelation 12:7-10:

"And there was a war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night....'"

I'm sorry I didn't word well and I'm afraid you misunderstood me- Jesus was telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31- Lazarus was not telling the story.

Regarding God's gender- there is ample evidence in Scripture that God, the Father, God, the Son, and Holy Spirit of God are all referred to as He. You probably have heard a heresy out there about the Holy Spirit being female and sadly, the NIV publishers have spoken of going gender neutral when it comes to God in future. This is heresy and abominable.

Regarding the Holy Spirit- see John 16:8 and verses 13-15 where Christ calls the Holy Spirit "He", not she, numerous times.

23rd said:

As for Pagan gods being demons, can I ask where it specfically says that? I was under the impression that it varied from translation to translation - with one calling them "devils" and the other calling them "idols".

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1 Corinthians 10:19-21.

23rd said:

Luke 10:18 doesn't say that anyone was "kicked out" of heaven. All it says is that Satan came to earth. Jesus saw Satan fall to earth. That's what it says. Do you not think that maybe it might be possible that God himself sent Satan - the accuser, his angel - to earth to make sure that Jesus died on the cross?

As he says in Isaiah 45:7: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. It makes me think he'd be quite capable of such.

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Given what the New Testament teaches, Satan is clearly no longer on God's payroll.

23rd said:

Hades is a borrow from Greek mythology. Hades was the Greek God of the underworld, who also resides in a place called Hades. To the ancient Greeks, he was the one who decided whether the soul would end up in a good place or a bad place. None of the Gods really liked him, per say, but he wasn't evil. This does, however, beg the question why Lazarus is reciting Greek mythology?

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Luke, the only Gentile Gospel writer, was retelling a parable of Jesus in a way that his Gentile audience would understand. Furthermore, in the Christian teaching of Hell, the word "Hades" describes the worse side of the temporary Hell. "Gehenna" was another borrowed term to describe the permanent Hell, the Lake of Fire.

23rd said:

"Father" God is debatable. There is scripture in the Bible that hints God is genderless, or both. In fact, if I remember correctly from what I've read of Hebrew, isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be the female?

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Nothing in Scripture indicates a female Holy Spirit. As for God the Father, God does relate to us as a Father. In a time when there were numerous gods and goddesses worshiped by pagans, there's no reason not to get the gender right of the god you are worshiping. Male and female were each made in His image, however.

23rd said:

This last paragraph I find a bit offensive. I have to become a Christian and go to church to be capable of loving people and doing good deeds? I have plenty of love now as a Pagan and I help people now - that's not the reason I'm considering converting.

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I personally didn't see what you were reading into that person's post. Loving people and doing good deeds is an important part of the Christian life. Can non-Christians do this too? Sure, but the love and good deeds don't get you to Heaven. We all have sins that need to be forgiven, and the one way to that forgiveness is Christ.

You're welcome, God bless you on your journey 23rd. I really enjoyed talking to you. Please check in when you want some more opinions/etc!

01. Well, none of the Bible is myth, so that may account for it.

02. People may have handed down their own versions of things that happened, but that is not to be put on par with Scripture, which is all inspired by God. All men know there is a God by the creation they see around them. (See in the New Testament: II Timothy 3:16, Romans chapter 1.)

03. Much of the Bible is literal and should be taken as such. There is symbolism used in it as well that means something- for example the 7 golden lampstands in Revelation is symbolic, representing seven churches.

04. What I can tell you is that there was much deliberation and careful thought and, I presume, much prayer about what was included in the canon of Scripture found in the Bible. Therefore, the things you mention are not included.

05.
Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."
Genesis 3:13-15 "Then the Lord God said to the woman, 'What is this you have done?' And the woman said, 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate.' And the Lord said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you more than cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life; and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head and you shall bruise him on the heel.'"

Note, in Revelation, Satan is called that "serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world". In Genesis 3, it speaks of the serpent deceiving and also, God tells of His plan, where Satan will be bruised on his head. I want you to know that Satan will experience ultimate defeat and is going to be cast into the everlasting fire prepared for him. As an old hymn says about Satan "lo, his doom is sure." God also said 'you shall bruise him on the heel' to Satan and when He did, He was making reference to Jesus death on the cross.

23rd said:

01. Why was Lilith not included in the Bible when she's included in the original Jewish myth?

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Genesis is one of the books of Moses. Those five books are Scripture, myths are not included. Jews sorted out early myths from canonized Scripture. Furthermore, I would contend that Lilith is a later addition. The Old Testament is very, very old.

23rd said:

02. How do Christians account for all similarities between the Sumerian myths and the stories of the Bible (particularly Genesis)?

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Genesis tells us the story of the beginning of humanity. These are roots that are hard to shake, even though people decided to worship other gods. Hence, we see flood stories such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, and stories similar to the Garden of Eden in Native American folklore.

23rd said:

03. Do Christians, generally speaking, take the Bible literally or see it more as metaphorical (except for maybe the gospels)?

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It depends on both the Christian and the passage. I personally think those who take the Bible less literally than most people don't have much of a faith to stand on - Yes, God really gave these commandments and did all these miracles; he's real and active and interested in our lives. However, you don't take it over-literally - I highly doubt that Solomon's bride's hair was literally a flock of goats, and that her breasts were literally two towers. Scripture is a mix of history and poetry and visions, and you have to recognize the genre of the passage you are reading before making a judgment about how literal it is.

23rd said:

04. What does the church teach- if anything- about the Book of Enoch & The Watchers, esp. in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

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If it's not canon, it's not Scripture, and certainly not on equal footing with Scripture.

23rd said:

05. What makes Christians nowadays believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan when it doesn't mention Satan and that was a much later interpretation?

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Who else would it be?

Hi again! I'm not usually online much on the weekend--sorry it took so long to get back to you.

23rd said:

01. Why was Lilith not included in the Bible when she's included in the original Jewish myth?

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That would be because Lilith is part of set of folk stories/fairy tales invented after the Genesis oral tradition began. Lilith, as a literary character, appears around 4,000 BC; Genesis dates from 6,000 BC at the latest (recently archaeologists have started to tentatively date it from around 10,000 BC).

Be careful not to fall for the faulty exegesis that places her into the Bible text... that's a well-known fallacy perpetuated by the kinds of "scholars" who thought the Da Vinci Code finally put to rest all their questions about Christianity.

Remember that Jewish mythologies and folk tales have no bearing on Christian Truth*. The Bible and its traditional interpretation are what you need to accept if you're to become a Christian; there's no hidden meaning in the text... there are stories that are hard for individuals to understand, but the Church has already had the Truth revealed to Her by God through Jesus Christ and His Apostles, and in the final analysis, Christians need to submit to that Truth.

I say this because I don't want to mislead you about what it means to be a Christian, that's all. An open mind is fine; reading widely is interesting and good for the brain; but canon is canon, and if you're going to use Scripture to make decisions that effect eternity, you need to stick to the canonical writings. At least, that's if you decide to become a Xian.

*I'd even say they have no bearing on Jewish truth. From what I understand, no rabbi would teach that Lilith was Adam's first wife, that they begat demons together, etc. etc. Perhaps the rabbi might, at the most, use the folk tales of Lilith to illustrate something... like we would use a Western fairy tale perhaps...Maybe you should contact your local shul and ask the rabbi to discuss this with you?

23rd said:

02. How do Christians account for all similarities between the Sumerian myths and the stories of the Bible (particularly Genesis)?

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See my previous post: there are grains of Truth in all human traditions, since human beings are made in the image of God. And what is recounted in Genesis did happen (caveat: Genesis is not an historical document, it's a narrative recounting historical events), so of course its contents crop up in other mythologies.

Note also, as I said above; it looks like Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch may be the oldest surviving oral tradition on earth, possibly 12,000 years old (10,000 BC). Sumerian civilization is younger than that--8,000 to 6,000 years old (6,000-4,000 BC). = Genesis FTW.

23rd said:

03. Do Christians, generally speaking, take the Bible literally or see it more as metaphorical (except for maybe the gospels)?

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It depends what you mean by Christians. And, to an extent, what you mean by "literally".

Most Christians will tell you they take the Bible literally. Different Xians mean this differently though. Some deny the presence of metaphor in the text; others believe that parts of the Bible are metaphorical, because the writer was speaking metaphorically about a profound truth. Some Xians would regards that bolded statement as heretical...

The EO and RCC don't believe the Bible should be taken literally word for word; both Churches teach that metaphor is obviously present in Scripture. (So when Jesus says "I am the door" he doesn't mean he's made of wood, and has a handle, etc.). Scripture is not, to the EO at least, an historical or legal document; it is God's revelation to His Creation. It contains stories, allegories, and metaphors; it also contains history. The RCC believes something very similar as far as I know.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in interpreting Scripture (i.e., on discerning which parts of the Bible should be taken completely literally, how NT revelation affects our reading of the OT, how present-day application of doctrine differs from the past, etc.), and that those who rest on their own, individual understanding will end up in trouble. (Proverbs 12:1 comes to mind.)

Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Anglicans/Methodists are all pretty similar to the EO and RCC on many points when it comes to Scripture, although they differ on the position of Church Tradition as a lens for the reading of Scripture.

Once you stray into Evangelical, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and fringe group territory, that's when things will vary wildly (if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved; if you don't believe in a 6-day creation or that Saturday is the only day for church attendance you aren't a Xian; polygyny is OK if it's your cultural norm; baptism is optional; the Eucharist is purely for rememberance; homosexuals should be barred from Church; etc. etc. The list is very long.)

If you have questions on individual verses, I strongly advise you to contact your priest about them. Don't rely on the internet or on your university reading; Christian interpretation is not the same as secular interpretation. We don't see the Bible as an archaeological document, but as the revealed Truth of God. You can ask us about parts of the Bible if you like, but it would be better to talk face-to-face to a priest.

23rd said:

04. What does the church teach- if anything- about the Book of Enoch & The Watchers, esp. in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

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The Ethiopian Orthodox Church regards the Book of Enoch as part of the Bible. The RCC and Eastern Orthodox Church regards it as deuterocanonical, and very interesting . It is quoted in the book of Jude, so it is worth being interested in. As far as I know, Judaism generally holds it as spurious; some ECFs have said this is because the book contains prophecies of Jesus Christ.

23rd said:

05. What makes Christians nowadays believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan when it doesn't mention Satan and that was a much later interpretation?

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For a number of reasons:

1. Most importantly, because Revelation 20:22 reveals it: "He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years". I know you are very interested in alternative readings of the Bible, but Christians hold to a Christian interpretation of the Bible; this verse has always referred, in Xian thought, to Satan and the Edenic serpent. You are free to read it differently, but that will be a secular reading.

2. Because Satan is the Adversary, the one who pulls us away from obedience to God, "a murderer from the beginning", and the serpent is all of these things too.

3. Also: what the Jews believed then =/= what Christians believe today. Jewish and Christian cosmology and theodicy are very, very different.

I really hope this helps a bit! It's always interesting to answer your questions, 23rd. I hope you're having a great Monday!