Confused...

knownbeforetime said:

I was told that I don't really believe in Dispensationalism because dispy teaches that there are two ways to salvation: Jews are saved by works (sacrifices and such) and Christians are saved by faith in Christ.

Somehow, I don't quite believe that.... But if it's true, I'd have to reject it....

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That is such a red herring ...

When someone says something like that ... ask them ... "what does "saved" mean"?

What is "Salvation"?

The use of the term in Scripture means different things in different portions of Scripture which describes the Dispensations.

So yes. "Salvation" was by works in several of the Dispensations.

For example "Salvation" into the "Kingdom" ... the "Millennial Kingdom" ... is based upon the "Sheep/Goat" Judgement ... which is by works.


Please don't believe me ... read about it in Scripture ...

Mat 25:31-46
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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However this is not "Salvation" which we look for in Heaven.

"Salvation" is not always the same thing.


There is so much disinformation out there ... sigh ...

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knownbeforetime said:

I was told that I don't really believe in Dispensationalism because dispy teaches that there are two ways to salvation: Jews are saved by works (sacrifices and such) and Christians are saved by faith in Christ.

Somehow, I don't quite believe that.... But if it's true, I'd have to reject it....

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All the dispensationalists that I know and associate with believe that there has only been one way for salvatioon/justification.

Since the fall of man, God has been graceous to provide a way for that. It has ALWAYS been by FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time in human history.

Under the Law FAITH was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. In this dispensation of grace, in which we now live, Salvation/justification is by FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

THANKS for asking.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Dispy said:

Under the Law FAITH was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH.

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And ... if there was no such "demonstration" ... there was no Faith.

Unlike today ... in which if there is no such "demonstration" ... it does not mean the party in question is not a believer.

It means their walk is not as it should be. Period.



Just to be clear here. There were dispensations in which there WAS a strong action REQUIREMENT. The Works were "necessary".

Many dispensational writers shy away from this hard notion ... but the facts are quite clear.

During the Dispensation of Law ... the legalities were necessary.

Not following the Law not only netted the party a stoning ... but they were not eligible for the associated blessings.

Before it is brought up ... do note that Abraham was saved by Faith ... yes. But Abraham did NOT live in the Dispensation of Law. He was several generations before the Law.

(But even he "did" and it was counted as Faith ...)

But if someone could just cite a few who were "saved" during the period of Law ... without the necessary ceremonial and legal requirements ...

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Dispy said:

All the dispensationalists that I know and associate with believe that there has only been one way for salvatioon/justification.

Since the fall of man, God has been graceous to provide a way for that. It has ALWAYS been by FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time in human history.

Under the Law FAITH was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. In this dispensation of grace, in which we now live, Salvation/justification is by FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

THANKS for asking.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

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Well stated,Dispy. And perhaps another consideration is "the content of faith" that was required in different dispensations.

What was the "content" of faith required to be believed during Matthew-John, and "early" Acts?bold is my emphasis):

"Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." Mt. 14:33

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mt. 16:16

(comment: and with the 16:18 "upon this rock" statement by the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour was setting the "foundation", i.e., the "rock", upon which the kingdom church, the "little flock" church(Luke 12:32 )would be built upon-their faith would rest upon the foundation that He was " the Christ, the Son of the living God.")

"And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ." Mark 8:29

"He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God." Luke 9:20

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Jn. 1:12

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did." Jn. 2:23

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jn. 3:18

"And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world." Jn 4:42

"And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." Jn. 6:69

"She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." Jn. 11:27

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." Jn. 20:31

No change in the message in "early" Acts:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:36

"And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all." Acts 3:16

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole." Acts 4:10

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

"And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." Acts 4:42

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37

No change in the message by Paul, early in his ministry, before he was progressively/gradually(i.e., progressive revelation:Acts 9:9,16; 22:10,16,17("trance"); 26:16; 1 Cor. 11:23; 2 Cor. 12:1 ; Gal. 2:2; Eph. 3:3; Col. 1:25; "But now"-Romans 16:26, Eph. 2:13, Col. 1:26 / notice Paul spent 3 years in Arabia per Galatians 1:17,18! 3 years! I find this amazing! Could that be Mt. Sinai? ) given the revelation of the mystery, from the risen, ascended, and glorified Lord Jesus Christ, from heaven(not earth),and the prophetic program was progressively/gradually(but temporarily) set aside:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:20

"But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ." Acts 9:22

Notice the change in Acts 13:

Paul presents the "outline" of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, the only gospel that will save in the current dispensation we are under :

Verse 13:28:"And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain." = the death of the Lord Jesus Christ

Verse 13:29: "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre."=the burial of the Lord Jesus Christ

Verse 13:30: "But God raised him from the dead:..." =the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ

And notice the gradual change in the message, as Paul boldly states:

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." Acts 13:38,39

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

knownbeforetime said:

Are you saying that faith without works is dead? If so, I can agree with that. I am under the belief that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If salvation is by faith alone, then it was always by faith alone (and if there is no "demonstration", it will be die).

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God is the same.

Immutable is the term.

But He holds us accountable to Him in different ways at different times. Each a "Stewardship" or "Dispensation".

Look out your window, you aren't in the Garden of Eden now are you ...?

Did God change?

No.

He changed the way He deals with us. He demands different things from us.

Do you attempt to keep the 613 statutes of the Old Testament Law ... ?

Why not if you think things never change?

I think not. The because the "times" have changed.

Faith without the works wasn't Faith during the period of the Law ...

If you find it convenient ... think of it as the definition of what constitutes Faith has changed.

And from what Scripture tells us it appears the Law will be implemented after the Rapture during the Tribulation period and during the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth. It will be a more strict implementation but the same Law. By more strict ... you may look into what I mean as it is described in Matthew 24.


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knownbeforetime said:

Sooo... Faith without works is dead? The Law is there to show which works would be considered faithful obedience. This goes back to Cain and Abel. Cain made a sacrifice but it wasn't the right sacrifice (it HAD to be an animal sacrifice not a crop sacrifice). And today, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in faithful obedience.

Maybe you mean to say that He changes the way He presents salvation to us?

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Let's take it one small step at a time.

Today ... works have nothing what so ever to do with Salvation. This is the Dispensation of Grace. The Law has been superseded.

The Law was put in place so that SIN INCREASED. It was to be a "Schoolmaster" and point the way to Christ.

We have no need for a Schoolmaster today as we have Christ.

If any doubt this ... there is a fundamental flaw in understanding.

No Works. Nada.

The period of the Law is over. We are to throw that "Old Woman" out.

If one intersperses Works of any kind as a requirement of the Salvation they preach ... described by Paul in the Book of Galatians as "Another Gospel" ... There is an unrevised curse (anathema) on any who teach it.

Galatians 1:6-10 KJV I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

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The whole of the book of Galatians is an indictment of those who would mix Law and Grace.

You may wish to read the white paper prepared by Sparry Lewis Chafer with is titled "The Terms of Salvation".

Christ paid the penalty due for each and every Sin and if one attempts to add to His Righteousness Grace their own frail attempts at righteousness ... there is no more Grace.

Yer on your own. Out of Grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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"Without Hope" is indeed a very sorry state.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

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“For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His work¬manship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before or¬dained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8 to 10.

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What part does sinful man play in his salvation? He is the recipient of God’s grace. Hear the cry of a poor condemned sinner, “What must I do to be saved ?” And the reply, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Acts 16:31.
By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves:

“IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.”
“NOT OF WORKS.”


“GOD’S WORKMANSHIP.”

Note how the “grace” message is stated in II Timothy 1:9 - 10:

“Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His, own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immor¬tality to light through the gospel.”

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Then note the future:

“That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches, of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:7.

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From “before the foundation of the world” to “the ages to come, “GRACE.” Salvation is God’s gift to the believing, receiving sinner.

“ The free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23.

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Because most human beings are incur¬ably religious they cannot be persuaded that Paul’s statement, in Romans 7:18, is true. Note his statement and with it Romans 8:8:

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” Romans 7:18.
“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:8.

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Some of the self-sufficient and self-¬righteous religious sinners repudiate and reject the Holy Spirit’s message by Paul in Romans 4:4 and 5. Others say such a message of salvation is too good to be true.

They call it “easy-beliefism”.

But it is good and it is true. Hear it. Believe it.

Here it is:

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believ¬eth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Rom¬ans 4:4 and 5.

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Hear it in different language

“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in ma¬lice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man ap¬peared. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour: That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.” Titus 3:3 to 8.

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Here then is God’s order, God’s mes¬sage, God’s way of salvation.

Note the human material that God has to work with, how He works, and what He really does with sinners who will let Him do the work of salvation. Keep in mind the word “let.” “Let” God save you.

Ac¬knowledge that you by nature are not fit for God’s presence and God’s heaven. Then you can be made fit by God’s grace and Christ’s redemptive work.

Not by your unrighteous works, which you may consider works of righteousness, but by God’s mercy and grace and Divine power, in, through, and by His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dispy said:

All the dispensationalists that I know and associate with believe that there has only been one way for salvatioon/justification.

Since the fall of man, God has been graceous to provide a way for that. It has ALWAYS been by FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time in human history.

Under the Law FAITH was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. In this dispensation of grace, in which we now live, Salvation/justification is by FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

THANKS for asking.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

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God's Grace our Faith from Creation to the end of the 1000 year kingdom. I am a dispensationalist and this is how I believe Faith In God according to the dispensation one is found in. Only one way of salvation - God's grace my faith.

That is it folks

Gordon

GordonSlocum said:

God's Grace our Faith from Creation to the end of the 1000 year kingdom. I am a dispensationalist and this is how I believe Faith In God according to the dispensation one is found in. Only one way of salvation - God's grace my faith.

That is it folks

Gordon

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So Gordon ... no difference Law vs. Grace?


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"The whole of the book of Galatians is an indictment of those who would mix Law and Grace."
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Notice the apostle Paul, "...the(my emphasis) apostle of the Gentiles...", always encouraged the Corinthian "saints", the most carnal "bunch" of saints, with words of encouragement, and never doubted their being "in Christ."

But notice he had harsh words of condemnation for the Galatians, for "religion", for legality.

This should be an object lesson the LORD God would have us to know.

In and with Christ(despite my "carnality" often displayed in my walk, and on this board)

John M. Whalen

Hey John.

I never tripped over it until just the other day ... but the first act of "religion" on earth was when Adam and Eve attempted "self-righteousness" by covering themselves with fig leaves.

Fig leaf of course being a type of the nation Israel.

Your point about the Corinthian "saints" is a good one ...

Tychicum said:

Hey John.

I never tripped over it until just the other day ... but the first act of "religion" on earth was when Adam and Eve attempted "self-righteousness" by covering themselves with fig leaves.

Fig leaf of course being a type of the nation Israel.

Your point about the Corinthian "saints" is a good one ...

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Thank you, Tychium.

Cain, representing religion("fruit of the ground an offering"-Gen. 4:3-"works"), hates Christ and his redemptive work through the shedding of blood, which is "pre-figured"by Abel's presenting to the LORD a blood sacrifice(Gen. 4:4). Religion says "Do". Christianity says "Done". Religion says "Behave". Christianity says "Believe". Religion says "Try". Christianity says "Trust".

(above from http://www.graceforall.net/No compromise_whalen.htm)

"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood(emphasis mine), I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." Exodus 12:13

Notice, that the LORD God(again!) would have us learn an object lesson, per Romans 15:4, that the word of God says "...when I see the blood...", i.e., not "....when I see your behaviour....."

In Christ,
John M. Whalen