Communion Bread - Question

circuitrider · May 11, 2015

Cappadocious said:
Tis not why.

Could you please take this somewhere else? It has nothing to do with the thread or with Wesleyan/Methodist theology.

MystyRock · May 11, 2015

circuitrider said:
Yes, God gives us grace in our participation in Holy Communion. Grace means his unmerited favor and love.

John Wesley called communion the "Grand Channel" of God's grace and believed you should commune as often as you are able. He himself communed several times a week.

So, is it the physical act of communion that imparts the grace or is it the attitude of the person?

circuitrider · May 11, 2015

MystyRock said:
So, is it the physical act of communion that imparts the grace or is it the attitude of the person?

You can't really separate the two. Attitude and action go together. The New Testament strongly supports the understanding that beliefs by themselves aren't meaningful if you don't actually act on your beliefs.

A New Testament understanding in fact is that if you don't act you really don't believe much. Only in western culture do we make "belief" about something in our head.

So the expectation is that your attitude about communion will cause you to take communion.

As an aside, one of the biggest problems with western Christianity is putting a greater emphasis on orthodoxy (right belief) over orthopraxy (right action.) When Jesus recruited his disciples he didn't say "believe in me" he said, "follow me."

MystyRock · May 12, 2015

circuitrider said:
You can't really separate the two. Attitude and action go together. The New Testament strongly supports the understanding that beliefs by themselves aren't meaningful if you don't actually act on your beliefs.

A New Testament understanding in fact is that if you don't act you really don't believe much. Only in western culture do we make "belief" about something in our head.

So the expectation is that your attitude about communion will cause you to take communion.

If someone is uncomfortable with communion, does that mean their beliefs aren't real?

circuitrider said:
As an aside, one of the biggest problems with western Christianity is putting a greater emphasis on orthodoxy (right belief) over orthopraxy (right action.) When Jesus recruited his disciples he didn't say "believe in me" he said, "follow me."

Interesting idea - something to think about this week.

Celticflower · May 12, 2015

If someone is uncomfortable with communion it may mean they need to learn and understand a bit more, but I don't think it is a sign to their beliefs being "unreal". Maybe if you write out what troubles you about it and seek answers (from scriptures, commentaries, trusted people, etc) one at a time you can come to a deeper understanding.

I have known people who have, from time to time, been uncomfortable taking communion because of something going on in their own lives.

But maybe being "uncomfortable" isn't really a bad thing - if it keeps you mindful of how much was given for you and how little you truly deserve it.

circuitrider · May 12, 2015

MystyRock said:
If someone is uncomfortable with communion, does that mean their beliefs aren't real?

No. God asks us to do a lot of things that we aren't comfortable. I'd much rather have people who take communion seriously than people who are comfortable with it.

Dave-W · May 14, 2015

circuitrider said:
If someone is uncomfortable with communion, does that mean their beliefs aren't real?

Click to expand...

No. God asks us to do a lot of things that we aren't comfortable. I'd much rather have people who take communion seriously than people who are comfortable with it.

I see the quote function is not completely on line yet. Oh well.

I attended a congregation (extreme holiness pentecostal) for a while in high school and they NEVER had communion. I asked the pastor why one day and he pointed me to this verse:

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

He said he was afraid if he served communion that the people were not good enough and many would start dropping dead. (he was serious)

circuitrider · May 14, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
I see the quote function is not completely on line yet. Oh well.

I attended a congregation (extreme holiness pentecostal) for a while in high school and they NEVER had communion. I asked the pastor why one day and he pointed me to this verse:

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

He said he was afraid if he served communion that the people were not good enough and many would start dropping dead. (he was serious)

What, what a horrible misunderstanding of Communion. He is denying his flock the bread of life.

RomansFiveEight · Jun 2, 2015

The Roman Catholic Church actually went through that same fear for a time. Some historical theologians believe that may have been a motivation for a theology that states Communion MUST be received at least once a year. There were parishioners; and priests alike; terrified of communion. There were actually churches (back when far-reaching churches were rarely contacted by church leadership; many centuries before telephones or even reliable mail service) that refused to OFFER communion, because the resident Priest was so afraid of it. This wasn't the norm but there are isolated examples of this happening.

I very firmly, with every fiber of who I am as a Christian, do not believe that my lord Jesus Christ wants us to tremble in fear before him constantly looking over our shoulders to make sure we didn't "accidentally sin" or do something not EXACTLY right. I believe communion was established not as a continuation of a legalistic "members only" practice; but as an open and blessed opportunity to meet Christ. In much the same way the sinner and the outcast and the leper met Christ and were healed.

Frankly, it's the 50-year church member who shuffles up to communion checking their watch to make sure we don't run too long, complain that the bread doesn't taste good or refuse to show up for church if we do communion more than once per month (each of these are real-life examples from my own practice of ministry). Those are the ones taking in an unworthy manner. I haven't seen one of them drop dead from communion yet. While I do pray for their practice of faith and pray that they open their hearts to the Holy Spirit; I also don't believe that communion is going to condemn them to hell because they've reduce it to a "through the motions" practice not unlike board meetings or pot-lucks. On the contrary; if anything will ever soften them to understanding what this table is about; it's that precious table.

Dave-W · Jun 3, 2015

RomansFiveEight said:
I very firmly, with every fiber of who I am as a Christian, do not believe that my lord Jesus Christ wants us to tremble in fear before him constantly looking over our shoulders to make sure we didn't "accidentally sin" or do something not EXACTLY right. I

And that was EXACTLY the stance of that congregation and pastor. In looking back at what he taught, he must have believed that people are only "saved" for a few seconds at a time.

He one time said that he kind of wished someone would walk up to people at the altar and blow them away with a 6 shooter so they would not have a chance to commit some unknown sin and die and go straight to hell.

Celticflower · Jun 3, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
And that was EXACTLY the stance of that congregation and pastor. In looking back at what he taught, he must have believed that people are only "saved" for a few seconds at a time.

He one time said that he kind of wished someone would walk up to people at the altar and blow them away with a 6 shooter so they would not have a chance to commit some unknown sin and die and go straight to hell.

I don't think I would last long in such a fear driven church. It seems the people must be more concerned with toeing the line than actually living a Christian life of service and love. Some days I think the only thing that gets me through is knowing I am forgiven and my hope in the Lord for the future.

RomansFiveEight · Jun 3, 2015

Unfortunately, some are. That's what it's all about for some folks. Tiptoeing around God like he's an abusive father we don't want to make angry. Bring him his slippers and beer (er.. sorry, it's most Civil War now, he only drinks sweet tea ), duck in case he gets angry and try not to make any noise.

Is that the kind of God in the New Testament?

Dave-W · Jun 3, 2015

RomansFiveEight said:
Is that the kind of God in the New Testament?

You mean the guy that turned water into Welch's Grape Juice?

Because he would have condemned anyone who even smelled of alcohol?

RomansFiveEight · Jun 3, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
You mean the guy that turned water into Welch's Grape Juice?

Because he would have condemned anyone who even smelled of alcohol?

Yeah that guy! Wine at the last supper? Psh.

Actually, my personal favorite is the response at Pentecost to the disciples when they were accused of being drunk. They didn't say "We're not drunk, we're Christians" or "We're not drunk, we follow the laws of God and don't drink!"

They said, "We're not drunk, it's only 9AM!"

I was once in a restaurant with a fellow "Christian" and when the waiter told her the drink specials she immediately barked down the poor kids throat and said "Umm, excuse me, I don't drink, I'm a Christian". Talk about legalistic arrogance.

I don't drink personally, but if there was ever a time in my life to order my first beer; that would've been it

Dave-W · Jun 3, 2015

RomansFiveEight said:
I don't drink personally, but if there was ever a time in my life to order my first beer; that would've been it

Love it! That pastor had a thing about alcohol. He preached endlessly on the evils of Scope, Listerene, Vanilla extract, etc. because they ALL contained alcohol. And he insisted that even SMELLING alcohol equalled the sin of drunkenness and cost you your salvation.

But God has a true sense of humor. One day he is praying and the Lord lays in on his mind to go pass out tracts in a bar he used to frequent before he came to faith. But that means God is telling him to sin. He wrestled with it for weeks. Tried rebuking the idea. No good. Ignoring it. No good. So then he starts thinking. HARD. and finally comes up with it: He would wait for a warm day when the doors were all open, hyperventilate out in the parking lot and run thru the place while holding his breath - passing out tracts on every table along his path. And he did so.

He was so "proud" of himself that he figured out how to obey God without sinning . . . . . . .

Yeah-----

then I went off to college. The city to our south opened up a Ethanol plant which made our entire town smell like a stale beer when the wind was right. THe church closed.

Celticflower · Jun 3, 2015

I just keep thinking about the time at my hometown's summer festival when our DS was opening beers for me. He is now my brother's father in-law and the last time I saw him we were drinking wine together in my brother's yard on a summer's night.

circuitrider · Jun 3, 2015

In this part of the country United Methodists are certainly nut hung up on issues of drinking alcohol. Certainly there are people who shouldn't drink. And there are health issues with alcohol. But there are also health issues with eating too much as well as a lot of other life style choices.

Given that there is no Biblical prescription against drinking, it is a hard emphasis for Methodism to maintain.

A few years ago the General Board of Church and Society tried to get churches to give up alcohol for Lent. Out of close to 40,000 UMC church a total of four (4), yes that is four, participated. Two of those churches had members who were part of the group proposing it.

The years of Methodists being non-drinkers is basically over for most.

Celticflower · Jun 3, 2015

As long as one does not drink to excess I see no problem with a glass or two of wine now and then. But I will not drink in front of some of my family members due to their inability to stop after one or two. It is easier to not provide the temptation for them and not drink than dealing with some of them once they get started.

Albion · Jun 3, 2015

circuitrider said:
In this part of the country United Methodists are certainly nut hung up on issues of drinking alcohol. Certainly there are people who shouldn't drink. And there are health issues with alcohol. But there are also health issues with eating too much as well as a lot of other life style choices.

Given that there is no Biblical prescription against drinking, it is a hard emphasis for Methodism to maintain.

A few years ago the General Board of Church and Society tried to get churches to give up alcohol for Lent. Out of close to 40,000 UMC church a total of four (4), yes that is four, participated. Two of those churches had members who were part of the group proposing it.

The years of Methodists being non-drinkers is basically over for most.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what position--in theory and also in practice--the Free Methodist and Wesleyan churches (or any other non-UMC Methodist church bodies) take on this matter (moderate drinking)?

circuitrider · Jun 3, 2015

Albion said:
Just out of curiosity, do you know what position--in theory and also in practice--the Free Methodist and Wesleyan churches (or any other non-UMC Methodist church bodies) take on this matter (moderate drinking)?

Albion, I'm afraid I don't know for sure. I believe that Nazarenes (at least according to a staff member of mine who is in the Nazarene Church) do not consume alcohol.

The official UMC position states the positive nature of abstinence, encourages it, but also declares that if you do drink it should be done judiciously. This recognizes our historical position but also what is current reality that many if not most Methodists are social drinkers.

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