Commandments for Gentiles?

pat34lee · Apr 3, 2013

danny ski said:
Our judges acted within the Law and according to the Law as commanded in the Torah. Wether it's the name of G-d or head covering, our Sages were mandated to settle issues and set standards. None of their rulings were ever taken lightly nor implemented on a whim. Since you're not bound by our rules, you're free to disregard kippa or Hannukha; you can even use any shade of blue in tzi tzi you fancy. Only keep in mind that there's no such thing as theology/tradition free Torah observance. Even among the Karaites. As is the MJ which filters the Torah through the non Torah sources.

I disagree with you on several points. The judges were set up to handle disputes, but not to set standards. That is why we have the Torah. It supplied the framework upon which the judges were to base their rulings. When they rule in such a way as to bypass the commands of Torah, they are making illegal rulings.

One such thing I looked at before was the sabbath year as pertaining to growing crops. The command is clear that the land is to be used for six years and allowed to rest on the seventh. They have made a mess of that in two ways. First by setting a seventh year that applies to all crops instead of individually setting the seven years by when each farmer began growing them. This means that instead of certain tracts being fallow every year, that all would be fallow at once. Certain rabbis have also ruled that the owner can 'sell' his land on the seventh year so that another farmer can plant on it, and then 'buy' it back the next year. That denies the land its rest.

Traditions are a part of life, but they must always be checked to see if they actually help follow the Torah or hinder us from it. If there is no direct command to cover the head, what purpose do kippah serve? And why do they so closely resemble the catholic beanies that the cardinals and pope wear? There would have been a reason to copy the design.

annier · Apr 3, 2013

Catherineanne said:
I cannot comment on Messianic belief, because I am not Messianic, but I can say that this is not my view, nor that of any Christian I know. It is perhaps the view of some evangelicals, but that does not make it a majority opinion.

I have no problem with the view that Jewish people receive grace for their belief system, as you put it. Why would that not be the case? Any God who chooses a race, remains faithful to them for several hundreds of years and then gives up on them, let alone casting them to the devil, would not be much of a God, imo. I do not think the blessed Paul intended any such interpretation of his words.

Jewish people are the older brothers of our faith, according to Pope John Paul II. We are family; Jews by birth, Christians by adoption, but we are all family.

Ditto. I believe as you as well. I think Grace and mercy to the Jewish people is the faithfulness of God in the covenant made in Circumcision. I believe God will keep his promises to them.

ContraMundum · Apr 4, 2013

danny ski said:
Our judges acted within the Law and according to the Law as commanded in the Torah. Wether it's the name of G-d or head covering, our Sages were mandated to settle issues and set standards. None of their rulings were ever taken lightly nor implemented on a whim.

There is of course the question of infallibility to answer on matters of tradition.

danny ski · Apr 4, 2013

Perhaps it would be good to revisit the meaning of "tradition". It's beyond silly to assume that a. people with history as long and as varied would be free of tradition.

ContraMundum · Apr 4, 2013

danny ski said:
Perhaps it would be good to revisit the meaning of "tradition". It's beyond silly to assume that a. people with history as long and as varied would be free of tradition.

Everyone has tradition, but the position of tradition within religions with sacred text has always been a question. Many Jews I know have a notion that the Sages are de facto infallible (although it is certainly not admitted in those words). Maimonides had a bit to say about that as well. When rulings are considered binding upon consciences, then the question must be asked about the authority of those making the rulings, and their infallibility in that process.

visionary · Apr 4, 2013

ContraMundum said:
Everyone has tradition, but the position of tradition within religions with sacred text has always been a question. Many Jews I know have a notion that the Sages are de facto infallible (although it is certainly not admitted in those words). Maimonides had a bit to say about that as well. When rulings are considered binding upon consciences, then the question must be asked about the authority of those making the rulings, and their infallibility in that process.

And this is where new growth comes from... branching out ... Following the Holy Spirit's leading does not take you down traditional paths..

mishkan · Apr 4, 2013

visionary said:
And this is where new growth comes from... branching out ... Following the Holy Spirit's leading does not take you down traditional paths..

I would phrase that a bit more gently... more like, "may not" take you down traditional paths.

I think we tend to focus on the strange and extraordinary in Scripture, while overlooking the fact that things had gone on just fine for hundreds of years, or more, without any divine intervention.

It is an occupational hazard that comes with reading about the experiences of others. We adopt the persona of the omniscient narrator, who stands outside the story, acting as if he knows all. But we miss the fundamentals that come with actually living in the flow of time and events that were recorded for us.

This is precisely why the concept of supplemental oral tradition was developed--so the story tellers had an authoritative source for background information to the actual stories.

visionary · Apr 4, 2013

mishkan said:
I would phrase that a bit more gently... more like, "may not" take you down traditional paths.

I think we tend to focus on the strange and extraordinary in Scripture, while overlooking the fact that things had gone on just fine for hundreds of years, or more, without any divine intervention.

It is an occupational hazard that comes with reading about the experiences of others. We adopt the persona of the omniscient narrator, who stands outside the story, acting as if he knows all. But we miss the fundamentals that come with actually living in the flow of time and events that were recorded for us.

This is precisely why the concept of supplemental oral tradition was developed--so the story tellers had an authoritative source for background information to the actual stories.

I stand corrected.. If it wasn't for the Lord taking me down ancient paths.. I wouldn't be here today..

visionary · Apr 4, 2013

macher said:
Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?

Why if they don't keep Torah ...others question their love for God or their love for Messiah Yeshua. Remember as a child before you were taught multiplication you only knew addition and subtraction. You can't teach anyone anything through negativity, harsh tongues, and a prideful heart. "Let your light shine before men that they will see your good works, ...

Torah Lishmah · Apr 4, 2013

pat34lee said:
The New Testament gives several examples of the traditions that the rabbis expected the people to follow. One was the washing of hands ritually before eating. It had nothing to do with cleanliness, and had no basis in scripture.

Do you know when ritual hand washing before meals was instituted, why it was instituted, and by whom? Feel free to cite the source.

pat34lee said:
Matthew 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Where is that recorded in Jewish halakha? Feel free to cite this source as well.

Torah Lishmah · Apr 11, 2013

Is anyone going to answer the questions in the last post?

yedida · Apr 11, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
Is anyone going to answer the questions in the last post?

I guess not.

pat34lee · Apr 11, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
Do you know when ritual hand washing before meals was instituted, why it was instituted, and by whom? Feel free to cite the source.

Where is that recorded in Jewish halakha? Feel free to cite this source as well.

Are you contending that neither of the examples are rabbinic traditions? Traditions do not begin at any one point, they grow over time until or unless somebody codifies them into law.

I gave the source, Matthew 15. If you are referring specifically to rabbinic sources, I have no idea, but why would they include it in the talmud when it only applied to the temple, and the talmud was for a post temple society?

Since you seem to have information about halakha, when was it decided that dairy products could not be eaten with fowl, and why?

davidbenephraim · Mar 23, 2016

Qnts2 said:
So to summarize what I understand you to be saying, if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer a Gentile. All believers are grafted in Israelites. So, there is no such thing as a Gentile believer in Yeshua.

Do I have that right?

Yes, you do.

And what of the Jewish people who do not believe? Do you believe they are still children of Israel or are they now Gentiles?

The Jewish people who do not believe Yeshua HaMashiach is their Messiah and Savior are still the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But, according to Yeshua HaMashiach, Himself, no they are not still the Yah's covenant people. If you are wondering where did Yeshua say that the Jews are not Yah's covenant people, He said it in John 8:31-44 when He told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil and the lusts of their father they will do.

You see, in verse 33, the Jews asserted their identity as the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to say they were never in slavery. Yeshua responded to their claim by pointing out that anyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. In verse 39, the Jews retorted by claiming to be Yah's covenant people when they said, "Abraham is our father." The name Abraham was used here by the Jews to refer to the Abrahamic Covenant. So they were claiming to be Yah's covenant people by claiming Abraham was their spiritual ancestor/father. Yeshua then responded to this claim of their covenant relationship with the Father in verse 44, "You are of your father the devil...."

Yeshua could not have been any plainer. Everyone whether Jew or Gentile is a sinner and a slave to sin. I believe John 3:16 &18 and Acts 4:12 say it all, “For Yah so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life….He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of Yah....Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” That name is the name that is above every name. Yeshua HaMashiach, He is the one and only Adonai who can save us from our sin.

pinacled · Mar 26, 2016

Concerning most of what I have read in this thread. There should be a considerable difference on who visits the widows and orphans. So many claim power to heal yet are incapable of position. Not knowin the truth apparently needed to act.

FredVB · Mar 26, 2016

I would say what Christ said is, which includes the revealed commandments, and his apostles teaching in scriptures, certainly with what is in the epistle for them from the apostolic council in Jerusalem.

Commandments for Gentiles?

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