CofC adds instrumental worships and deems it right???

ModestGirlsRock · Feb 8, 2008

I know that it's wrong to condemn people for the use of instruments in the church, or really for anything because it's not our place to judge others, and I most certainly try not to. However, recently, a church of christ in my state has added instrumental worship, and it bothers me.

They say they're going to keep another time for an A capella worship, but I do believe what they're doing is incorrect. I guess it's because it's been so ingrained in me that we obey God in his silence and should not take biblical authority into our own hands by using his lack of mentioning a forbiddance of instruments in worship to justify its use. This church has been speculated upon that they added instruments to get more people to come to church. They "modernized" their worship for growth. Yet, that's not what the cofc is all about. We may be in the world, but we're not suppose to be of the world. If it's not bibical truth and people inviting others coming to church and sharing with them the gospel thats making the church grow, then people are going to church for the wrong reasons.

I'm disheartened about the situation and I can't help but think what other church of christs could have done especially since the church of christ that added the instruments were doing activities with the Baptist church nearby and associating very closely with them. I'm thinking influence on the Church of Christ from the Baptist was stronger rather than vice-versa. I know many people in the church of christ could care less about having or not having instruments, but it's not about us...It's about God and pleasing him. I don't want to take the risk of displeasing him, and I'm disappointed that others are.

crawfish · Feb 8, 2008

You're talking about Quail Springs, I assume. My church added an instrumental service last year.

Here is a simple question you should ask about. Consider the verse:

Colossians 3:16 said:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Now, when it says "psalms" it refers to the book of Psalms. Consider these Psalms:

Psalms 92:1-3 said:
It is good to praise the LORD
and make music to your name, O Most High, to proclaim your love in the morning
and your faithfulness at night,
to the music of the ten-stringed lyre
and the melody of the harp.

Psalms 150 said:
Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

So, I ask you: why would God command the singing of Psalms that laud the use of musical instruments, but imply those songs were to be sung without them? If something seems to be pleasing to God in the OT and the NT is silent on it, why should we assume that it has become unacceptable? I struggled with this question for some time, but study brought me to the conclusion that the only reasons to support non-instrumental worship were non-biblical ones - and thus, instruments could not be against the will of God. It should be left to the eldership of each congregation to decide which worship style is most fitting.

By the way - assuming you are from North MacArthur in OKC, it's nice to have a fellow Okie here (even though I'm a displaced one). I grew up - and my parents still attend - Westside CofC in Norman, and I brother attends Memorial Road.

Molal · Feb 8, 2008

You know I struggle with this question, I am not convinced that we should be using instruments. However, I too have looked at the psalms quoted by crawfish and at revelation - where instruments are used in the praise of God.

I feel as though it is wrong. But, I continue to study the word and try to find the truth.

Splayd · Feb 8, 2008

I've studied and discussed this issue in depth over the last few years. At the end of it all I just think the fact that this is an issue at all is such a tragic distraction and an unhealthy preoccupation for far too many.

Seriously - we waste way too much energy worrying about the form of the worship and not nearly enough on the worship itself. I say that about those who determine we mustn't have instruments at all to the point that it becomes divisive as well as those who through their practice place undue emphasis on their "worship team", determining that their services must be contemporary by placing their instrumentalists on a pedestal. Both sides are distracted from the truth in my opinion. Personally I could care less whether a congregation has no instruments, an old lady on a piano or a full rock band... as long as their worship is sincere and true. It's really not meant to be about the form.

Splayd · Feb 8, 2008

ModestGirlsRock said:
They say they're going to keep another time for an A capella worship, but I do believe what they're doing is incorrect. I guess it's because it's been so ingrained in me that we obey God in his silence and should not take biblical authority into our own hands by using his lack of mentioning a forbiddance of instruments in worship to justify its use.

A lot of the differences we have in our approach to this issue come from this idea of "silence". It's kinda ironic that we all agree on this idea of "being silent where scripture is silent" even though it's not actually in scripture as such. Regardless, we agree the principal is scriptural. We just tend to disagree on what the principal is. At it's most basic - I'd suggest that silence occurs when scripture neither condemns nor commands a practice either explicitely or implicitely. Where such instances occur, I'd determine that silence on our part would mean neither demanding nor condemning the practice, but rather allowing it to be an issue of liberty, left to the conviction of the individual. As I understand it - speaking against an issue that scripture is silent about... is far from being silent. Mind you - I'd also suggest that scripture isn't really silent about this issue anyway. I'd argue that anyone approaching scripture, free from bias, would recognise an implicit acceptance of instruimental worship, but that's open for debate. We see things differently there.

This church has been speculated upon that they added instruments to get more people to come to church. They "modernized" their worship for growth. Yet, that's not what the cofc is all about. We may be in the world, but we're not suppose to be of the world. If it's not bibical truth and people inviting others coming to church and sharing with them the gospel thats making the church grow, then people are going to church for the wrong reasons.

Yeah, I understand your thoughts here but I wonder again if your presentation of them is entirely fair. Our congregation bought a bus to get more people to church. It doesn't mean they're going for the wrong reason though just because an extrabiblical object helps get them in the door. Besides which, I think most (if not all) people go to church for the wrong reason at some time or another, whether it be a sense of obligation, strictly socialising, piousity, whatever... it doesn't mean God can't and/or doesn't use that wrong motivation for His good once we're there.

Peace

ModestGirlsRock · Feb 8, 2008

well, we have new vans as well, but I meant the appeal of worship, not the literal way or how a person would get to church. Thank you for your input, splayed. It's been an interesting read.

DerSchweik · Feb 9, 2008

This topic has been on my heart for a long time - so I was glad to see this thread topic.

Side-stepping the "doctrinal" issues of instrumental music, it seems to me there are negative, unintended consequences with IM too.

I think it [inst. music] ought to enhance congregational worship, not supplant it. IMO the latter is not only occurring but doing so with greater momentum - and that concerns me, particularly knowing how fulfilling and edifying GOOD congregational singing can be for members and visitors alike.

Some observations I have re IM in worship:

Worship seems to be shifting away from the pews to the stage
Hymnals are disappearing, replaced by projected lyrics onto large screens or monitors.
Lyrics appear on the screens without accompanying music. If you do not know the song, you must listen to the main melody for a verse or two before you "catch on" and can begin to sing along
4-part harmony is disappearing - the four basic "voices" (soprano, alto, tenor, bass) are merging into one "voice" - whatever voice the entertainers on stage have.
Over amplification "drowns out" the sound of those in the pews. In some cases, the amplification is so loud you cannot even hear the person next to you singing.
Center-Stage Focus: There is no "encouraging one another" in our singing - looking around at one another in the pews, singing to each other and to God - instead, all eyes are focused forward - to the entertainment.
"Entertainment" rather than participative involvement. It is almost as if the people in the pews are discouraged from singing in favor of just watching and listening to the crowd on stage.
Song selection is so random and diverse that it is rare the congregation sings the same song more than once in a few months or more. How can a congregation get good, if they can never practice the same song?
Song selection often picks songs unknown by a majority of the people in the pews, preventing them from really singing.
Song selection is shifting to songs created by popular Christian musicians, songs they wrote specifically for their voices and their singing talents, songs that most non-musicians have great difficulty singing themselves, songs basically not designed for congregational singing
If you look over the people in the pews, most are merely mouthing the words to the songs, lips barely moving.
It seems too that there are more people who are not even singing at all.
When the rare acapella song is sung, it is so unexpected the unprepared audience barely raises their voices at all.
Major performances/productions - bands, choirs, more and more people on stage.
Worship, IMO is becoming more stimulating yet less fulfilling, more enjoyable, yet less worshipful.
Silence is anathema! RARE are contemplative times in worship - every second seems to be taken up with some "activity" or "background noise," including during the Lord's Supper and public prayers.
"Worship" seems less today about giving than about receiving, less about participation than being entertained.

I dearly miss the vibrant, interactive worship of corporate congregational singing. I miss the sounds of four-part harmony. I miss the opportunity to really sing WITH one another TO God.

I don't oppose instrumental music per se, but I fear we are, as an unintended consequence, losing our ability as a church to SING - to PRAISE GOD with the voices He has given us. On that basis alone, I totally dislike it.

Thanks! Great thread topic!

Molal · Feb 9, 2008

DerSchweik said:
This topic has been on my heart for a long time - so I was glad to see this thread topic.

Side-stepping the "doctrinal" issues of instrumental music, it seems to me there are negative, unintended consequences with IM too.

I think it [inst. music] ought to enhance congregational worship, not supplant it. IMO the latter is not only occurring but doing so with greater momentum - and that concerns me, particularly knowing how fulfilling and edifying GOOD congregational singing can be for members and visitors alike.

Some observations I have re IM in worship:

Worship seems to be shifting away from the pews to the stage

Hymnals are disappearing, replaced by projected lyrics onto large screens or monitors.

Lyrics appear on the screens without accompanying music. If you do not know the song, you must listen to the main melody for a verse or two before you "catch on" and can begin to sing along

4-part harmony is disappearing - the four basic "voices" (soprano, alto, tenor, bass) are merging into one "voice" - whatever voice the entertainers on stage have.

Over amplification "drowns out" the sound of those in the pews. In some cases, the amplification is so loud you cannot even hear the person next to you singing.

Center-Stage Focus: There is no "encouraging one another" in our singing - looking around at one another in the pews, singing to each other and to God - instead, all eyes are focused forward - to the entertainment.

"Entertainment" rather than participative involvement. It is almost as if the people in the pews are discouraged from singing in favor of just watching and listening to the crowd on stage.

Song selection is so random and diverse that it is rare the congregation sings the same song more than once in a few months or more. How can a congregation get good, if they can never practice the same song?

Song selection often picks songs unknown by a majority of the people in the pews, preventing them from really singing.

Song selection is shifting to songs created by popular Christian musicians, songs they wrote specifically for their voices and their singing talents, songs that most non-musicians have great difficulty singing themselves, songs basically not designed for congregational singing

If you look over the people in the pews, most are merely mouthing the words to the songs, lips barely moving.

It seems too that there are more people who are not even singing at all.

When the rare acapella song is sung, it is so unexpected the unprepared audience barely raises their voices at all.

Major performances/productions - bands, choirs, more and more people on stage.

Worship, IMO is becoming more stimulating yet less fulfilling, more enjoyable, yet less worshipful.

Silence is anathema! RARE are contemplative times in worship - every second seems to be taken up with some "activity" or "background noise," including during the Lord's Supper and public prayers.

"Worship" seems less today about giving than about receiving, less about participation than being entertained.

I dearly miss the vibrant, interactive worship of corporate congregational singing. I miss the sounds of four-part harmony. I miss the opportunity to really sing WITH one another TO God.

I don't oppose instrumental music per se, but I fear we are, as an unintended consequence, losing our ability as a church to SING - to PRAISE GOD with the voices He has given us. On that basis alone, I totally dislike it.

Thanks! Great thread topic!

Wow - although I disagree with the projected music on a screen (at my church we have SATB) and the disappearance of hymnals, I agree with everything you have said.

Well said DerScheik. reps.

DerSchweik · Feb 9, 2008

Molal said:
Wow - although I disagree with the projected music on a screen (at my church we have SATB) and the disappearance of hymnals, I agree with everything you have said.

Well said DerScheik. reps.

Thanks Molal! Anymore I'm beginning to feel like a real relic for feeling this way. At 53, I'm supposed to be experiencing the new 33. NOT!

I generalized of course - I have no problems really with most of the stuff - its just the unintended consequences I find disturbing.

I haven't held a hymnal in my hands in probably 8 years - which means I haven't seen the notes that accompany the lyrics in that time either. Screens are ok, but the content is lacking imo.

I dearly, dearly miss good congregational singing. We used to sing songs we knew and loved - REGULARLY. Most of them we had to be taught how to sing - the guys would sing bass and baritone, the lades soprano and alto. Each had their own part in the overall harmony.

The songs were designed for congregations, not individual artists. Brother - let me tell ya - we could BELT out POWERFUL music to the Lord. It was in the singing, in the participation with one another that I, at least, truly felt like we were worshipping Him with all our vigor and heart.

I like listening to great Christian music as much as the next person - but IMO there are only certain types of music in which a congregation can PARTICIPATE fully.

I miss that. I miss knowing it is OUR voices in the pews that are worshipping God in music rather than those on stage, that OUR worship is a consequence of being in the audience as performers on stage do THEIR thing.

Anymore I feel prohibited from participating. It's not done on purpose, I realize. But when the music is isolated to a few "gifted" musicians and amplified so loudly I can't even hear my own voice - I feel stifled, as if my voice isn't supposed to be heard.

But, I rant.

Molal · Feb 9, 2008

I think it's an honest rant. I feel the same way - there are unintended consequences to instrumental music - it makes it a show and not worship (in my opinion).

At my CoC we use a projector with the notes in SATB - I sing tenor, mostly............I'm not a good singer. But I try and I try my hardest and I try to become better. it is this want to get better, to improve, that I think the Lord enjoys. I think by having instrumental worship (even praise teams) there is no want or need to improve, the focus is taken away from the Lord.

I love acapella music - it is difficult to sing, but well worth it, in my opinion.

DerSchweik · Feb 9, 2008

Molal - what is SATB? Not heard of that before. If it projects the notes too - I might be able to persuade someone in our church to do the same.

Molal · Feb 9, 2008

DerSchweik said:
Molal - what is SATB? Not heard of that before. If it projects the notes too - I might be able to persuade someone in our church to do the same.

SATB - soprano, alto, tenor bass. SATB music has four voices - these are the standard choral voices.

In song books you see four music staffs - the top staff is soprano, second alto, third tenor and fourth bass.

I'll check on the software my church uses that displays on the projector. It provides a view similar to that in song books - except it is much easier to read. I like the system since it makes people look at the screen and not bury their heads in a book - the sound is fantastic.

DerSchweik · Feb 9, 2008

SATB - o, doh! How did I miss that, ha! I asssumed that was an acronym for some technology or something, ha!

Hey, please do! I would love to introduce something like that to our church!

Molal · Feb 9, 2008

DerSchweik said:
SATB - o, doh! How did I miss that, ha! I asssumed that was an acronym for some technology or something, ha!

Hey, please do! I would love to introduce something like that to our church!

I will, and I'll let you know.

I think it is software purchased from one on the song book publishers (it's a red song book). But I'll check.

DerSchweik · Feb 9, 2008

Thanks!

I read music about as well as I read Hebrew - but I can grasp when to go up and when to go down, ha! That at least is helpful.

Molal · Feb 9, 2008

DerSchweik said:
Thanks!

I read music about as well as I read Hebrew - but I can grasp when to go up and when to go down, ha! That at least is helpful.

Likewise, I'm terrible. It's even more embarresing because my wife is an opera singer and a music teacher.........and I can't carry a tune!

Like Christ, we are a body and I must have a different function..........not sure what it is yet

crawfish · Feb 9, 2008

DerSchweik said:
Thanks Molal! Anymore I'm beginning to feel like a real relic for feeling this way. At 53, I'm supposed to be experiencing the new 33. NOT!

I generalized of course - I have no problems really with most of the stuff - its just the unintended consequences I find disturbing.

I haven't held a hymnal in my hands in probably 8 years - which means I haven't seen the notes that accompany the lyrics in that time either. Screens are ok, but the content is lacking imo.

I dearly, dearly miss good congregational singing. We used to sing songs we knew and loved - REGULARLY. Most of them we had to be taught how to sing - the guys would sing bass and baritone, the lades soprano and alto. Each had their own part in the overall harmony.

The songs were designed for congregations, not individual artists. Brother - let me tell ya - we could BELT out POWERFUL music to the Lord. It was in the singing, in the participation with one another that I, at least, truly felt like we were worshipping Him with all our vigor and heart.

I like listening to great Christian music as much as the next person - but IMO there are only certain types of music in which a congregation can PARTICIPATE fully.

I miss that. I miss knowing it is OUR voices in the pews that are worshipping God in music rather than those on stage, that OUR worship is a consequence of being in the audience as performers on stage do THEIR thing.

Anymore I feel prohibited from participating. It's not done on purpose, I realize. But when the music is isolated to a few "gifted" musicians and amplified so loudly I can't even hear my own voice - I feel stifled, as if my voice isn't supposed to be heard.

But, I rant.

I do sympathize with you, DerSchweik; really, I do. I love four-part harmonies and a Capella music; and I actually prefer to attend our a Capella service over our instrumental one. However, I have spoken to numerous people who feel they express themselves better in an instrumental service; some tend to feel naked, so to speak, without them and end up not singing. Some just prefer to be accompanied, it makes them feel more into worship - the same way you and I feel more into the service without it.

I also see your point about the unintended consequences. I think an unintended consequence of a Capella music, to be honest, is the holding of such as God's will, and the looking down on those who do otherwise. I have found myself at odds with my parents since my church's adoption of IM; I'm certain my old-school CofC grandparents are rolling in their graves. When I visit my home church I do not talk about my church for fear of harm to my father, who is an elder there. It has not been easy for me to deal with.

But in the end, the scriptures just do not support the non-IM viewpoint. It is truly a non-issue. The scriptures should be the final word.

crawfish · Feb 9, 2008

Molal said:
SATB - soprano, alto, tenor bass. SATB music has four voices - these are the standard choral voices.

In song books you see four music staffs - the top staff is soprano, second alto, third tenor and fourth bass.

I'll check on the software my church uses that displays on the projector. It provides a view similar to that in song books - except it is much easier to read. I like the system since it makes people look at the screen and not bury their heads in a book - the sound is fantastic.

I've seen those and really like them. Growing up in the CofC and singing nowhere else, I found that until I went to a church that projected the words I could not sing without my head down. It's been nice to be able to look out over the audience as I sing.

fishon · Feb 9, 2008

I am a CofC instrumental pastor. While at Bible College, I attended a Non-instrumental church. Wow, they could sing.

But if we go STRICTLY as silence as the reason to restrict, then I dare say that you need to show me where Hymnals fit in. And I never could understand why the music director had to use a pitch pipe to start the first note???

And one other thing, if God had worship given to Him by instruments in the Old Testament and there will be instruments in heaven, why, if He didn't want them in New Testament times just tell us? And why would He not want them? If they are good enough to God in the OT and Heaven, why not now?

I mean no disrespect by my questions. Just questions. If a non-instrumentalist were to stop by our little country church and I knew they were offended by the piano, we would put it away for the day. In fact I have offered to do that on 4 occasions. No takers.
MAKE IT a great Sunday.
fishon

DerSchweik · Feb 10, 2008

fishon said:
I am a CofC instrumental pastor. While at Bible College, I attended a Non-instrumental church. Wow, they could sing.

But if we go STRICTLY as silence as the reason to restrict, then I dare say that you need to show me where Hymnals fit in. And I never could understand why the music director had to use a pitch pipe to start the first note???

...and what about microphones & speakers & dot dot dot - I totally agree brother.

The doctrine prohibiting IM is untenable imo - and certainly not worthy of division over. My position is strictly personal - I've seen good congregational singing; I've seen the effect it has on the church and on visitors, and I believe in the interest of our overarching purpose as Christians to spread His word, to be fruitful, to be devoted to one another in love that an emphasis on IM such that it becomes more entertainment than enhancement will in short time defeat His purpose for us as Christians.

I guess that is my primary beef - that IM has led to our services becoming more entertainment and large stage productions, than simple musical enhancement of song worship. But that's another thread topic...

fishon said:
And one other thing, if God had worship given to Him by instruments in the Old Testament and there will be instruments in heaven, why, if He didn't want them in New Testament times just tell us? And why would He not want them? If they are good enough to God in the OT and Heaven, why not now?

No argument here. Amen bro!

fishon said:
I mean no disrespect by my questions. Just questions. If a non-instrumentalist were to stop by our little country church and I knew they were offended by the piano, we would put it away for the day. In fact I have offered to do that on 4 occasions. No takers.
MAKE IT a great Sunday.
fishon

Indeed. Great comments. Thanks!

CofC adds instrumental worships and deems it right???

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