Co-Redeemer?

ah... so here is the other side of the argument, if fits HER and HER alone, because of what she did, etcetera etcetera....

which is it guys, is EVERYONE a co-redeemer, or just Mary?

Either way, it's very wrong.

Click to expand...

And merciful judge fits Jesus just as well as it does all human merciful judges.

So wich one is it?

She can be called co-redeemer in the order of Grace.<<<<< Notice the qualifer here



Peace

lionroar0 said:

And merciful judge fits Jesus just as well as it does all human merciful judges.

So wich one is it?

She can be called co-redeemer in the order of Grace.<<<<< Notice the qualifer here



Peace

Click to expand...

sorry, you know a Judge who has the title "merciful?"

explain your qualifier.

Uphill Battle said:

I was addressing the list given, Bene.

Click to expand...

I know.. my point was in the context of liturgical worship, we do refer to Jesus by his "bible only" title.

We all give him titles and it's not wrong to do that. The bible does not tell us we can't do that.

So we're just trying to figure out why you all say we can't give Mary a title? You do not have to agree with the title we give and I don't have to either.

Like "Lamb of God," some of Mary's titles can not be argued against, like Mother of God. But Co Redeemer can. You are free to disagree with this and so am I.

The point is, why can't we give her a title though? You all give them to Christ? Right?


.

sunlover1 said:

Absolutely not, I'm hung up on the truth.
Im hung up on Jesus, and He doesn't share
His glory with a co-anything.

Click to expand...

Yeah, he does. He shares his glory with all of us who are in heaven. Mary is.

I guess whatever the angel called her would
be what God called her and would be a fine title.

Click to expand...

"Mary, Full of Grace" is one of our titles.
.

Benedicta00 said:

I know.. my point was in the context of liturgical worship, we do refer to Jesus by his "bible only" title.

We all give him titles and it's not wrong to do that. The bible does not tell us we can't do that.

So we're just trying to figure out why you all say we can't give Mary a title? You do not have to agree with the title we give and I don't have to either.

Like "Lamb of God," some of Mary's titles can not be argued against, like Mother of God. But Co Redeemer can. You are free to disagree with this and so am I.

The point is, why can't we give her a title though? You all give them to Christ? Right?


.

Click to expand...

I think you are overlooking the point.

Adding a title for the SAKE of a title, is what I said.
because if it were true what you say, about us all being
co-redeemers in our actions, then it would be a title we should all share, not just given to Mary.

It is applied to Mary, however, so that she can have yet another title in the long pantheon of Marian Devotion.

Uphill Battle said:

ah, so I suppose everything you do now that is a "good work" is attributed to you as righteousness?

talking about ascriptural? and error? please.

Click to expand...

When it's done in faith, in Christ- darn right it is. We don't believe in that substitutionary imputed righteousness stuff.

.

Uphill Battle said:

I think you are overlooking the point.

Adding a title for the SAKE of a title, is what I said.
because if it were true what you say, about us all being
co-redeemers in our actions, then it would be a title we should all share, not just given to Mary.

It is applied to Mary, however, so that she can have yet another title in the long pantheon of Marian Devotion.

Click to expand...

But it is a title for us all but as usual- Mary is seen like us but in a higher degree. NOT God's degree but she is the most blessed among us and all the saints and angles in heaven. .

Benedicta00 said:

When it's done in faith, in Christ- darn right it is. We don't believe in that substitutionary imputed righteousness stuff.

.

Click to expand...

ah... so your righteousness comes from your works.

interesting. False, but interesting.

(suggest a biblegateway search on righteousness.....)

sorry, you know a Judge who has the title "merciful?"

Click to expand...

The Judge that let my co-worker go was merciful.

explain your qualifier.

Click to expand...

Everyone has a certain capacity for Grace.

Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are sources an infinity of Grace.

So they are excluded from the argument.

From a Catholic POV. She was filled with grace. "Hail Mary full of grace."

She was created for the Son. She was created sinless for Jesus so she was filled completely with grace. Sin and grace the opposites of eahc other. When there is sin there is no grace when there is grace there is no sin.

Filled completely with grace as she was there was no sin on her.

She co-operated with God in an unique fashion by bringing forth Jesus.

She co-redeemed us by co-operating with God. In an unique fashion that no else in history has by saying yes to God and giving birth to Jesus.

This does not mean that we see her as the savior of our sins. Jesus is the only savior.

We see her as partaking an unique and singular role in the redemptive work of God.

We belive that everyone who is doing God's will is partaking in the redemptive work of God.

In a more general sence this means evangalization.

She did this in a unique way that no one else has by giving birth to Jesus.

Peace

Do not confuse the reason Christmas is celebrated with the Incarnation.
Celebrating birthdays is a Chaldean tradition based on Astrology. Job was making atoning sacrifices for his children's birthday parties in the opening chapter of the book that bears his name.

Classic example of confusion by equivocation.

Click to expand...

What a bunch if pseudo-knowledge.

Christmass is because of the Incanation.

Peace

Uphill Battle said:

ah... so your righteousness comes from your works.

interesting. False, but interesting.

(suggest a biblegateway search on righteousness.....)

Click to expand...

No, don't lie on me.

I said IN faith, in Christ works matter. Alone they don't.

Works is a truth, we are to have them. With out faith they get us no where, but in faith they matter and faith with out them is dead.

Look, i don't want to turn this into a faith/works deal. open another thread for that. .

"When there is sin there is no grace when there is grace there is no sin."

Grace is where sin is, because that is where it is needed.

we all have.

Uphill Battle said:

ah... so your righteousness comes from your works.

interesting. False, but interesting.

(suggest a biblegateway search on righteousness.....)

Click to expand...

Maybe Bene is talking about
acting righteous, not being righteousness
enough by her own works.
1 John 3:7
7 Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that doeth righteousness is righteous,
even as he is righteous.



Here Bene, this is what UB is speaking of,
not OT stuff.
Romans 4:5-6
5 But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man,
unto whom God imputeth
righteousness without works,


Romans 10:2-5
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God,
but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness
to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,
That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.



Apart from Christ we aren't and cannot
be righteous.
He is our righteousness.
Which I'm sure you knew anyhow.

sunlover

Except the original sin


we all have

Click to expand...

That's the other thread.

Peace

lionroar0 said:

What a bunch if pseudo-knowledge.

Christmass is because of the Incanation.

Peace

Click to expand...

Ain't it though?

Here is why we say Mary is co redeemer.

Jesus Christ was born on Christmas Day
and man will live for evermore because of Christmas Day

A long time ago in Bethlehem so the Holy Bible said
Mary's Boy Child Jesus Christ was born on Christmas Day.

Hark now hear the angels sing
a King was born today
and man will live for evermore because of Christmas Day
Mary's Boy Child
Jesus Christ was born on Christmas Day.

While shepherds watched their flocks
by night they see a bright new shinig star
they hear a choir sing a song

the music seemed to come from afar.

Hark now hear the angels sing
a King was born today
and man will live for evermore because of Christmas Day


For a moment the world was aglow
all the bells rang out
there were tears of joy and laughter
people shouted let ev'ryone know
there is hope for all to find peace.

How Joseph and his wife Mary came to Bethlehem that night, they found no place to bear her child not a single room was in sight and then they found a little nook in a stable all forlorn and in a manger cold and dark Mary's little boy was born.

Hark now hear the angels sing
a King was born today
and man will live for evermore because of Christmas Day
Mary's Boy Child
Jesus Christ was born on Christmas Day.

For a moment the world was aglow


Oh my Lord
you send your son to save us
oh my Lord
your very self you gave us
oh my Lord
that sin may not enslave us
and love may reign once more.

Oh my Lord
when in the crib they found him
oh my lord
a golden halo crowned him
oh my Lord
they gathered all around him
to see him and adore.

Oh my Lord
with the child's adoration
oh my Lord
there came great jubilation
oh my Lord
and full of admiration
they realized what they had

Oh my Lord (well praise the Lord)
they had just begun to doubt you
oh my Lord (he is the truth forever)
what did they know about you.

Oh my Lord (so praise the Lord)
but they were lost without you
they needed you so bad (his light is shinig on us)

Oh my Lord (oh my Lord so praise the Lord)
with the child's adoration
Lord (oh my Lord
he is a persontion).
There came great jubilation
oh my Lord (so praise the Lord)
and full of admiration
they realized what they had .

Rick Otto said:

"When there is sin there is no grace when there is grace there is no sin."

Grace is where sin is, because that is where it is needed.

Click to expand...

Romans 5:20-21
But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness
unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Apart from Christ we aren't and cannot
be righteous.
He is our righteousness.
Which I'm sure you knew anyhow.

Click to expand...

Things got lost in the translation from protestanese to cathocalese to protestanese to cathocalese to...ect




Peace

sunlover1 said:

Maybe Bene is talking about
acting righteous, not being righteousness
enough by her own works.
1 John 3:7
7 Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that doeth righteousness is righteous,
even as he is righteous.



Here Bene, this is what UB is speaking of,
not OT stuff.
Romans 4:5-6
5 But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man,
unto whom God imputeth
righteousness without works,


Romans 10:2-5
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God,
but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness
to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,
That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.



Apart from Christ we aren't and cannot
be righteous.
He is our righteousness.
Which I'm sure you knew anyhow.

sunlover

Click to expand...

Yeah, I did. That is what i do like about you- you keep it real. .