Clean enough for communion!

Andrew · Jun 12, 2002

It's all here with pixs:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/communion.html

ZiSunka · Jun 12, 2002

Hmm, interesting. I agree that confession of all sins is not what this passage is talking about.

But does that then mean that individuals can't be unworthy? That because Christ died for all our sins, we are automatically worth of communion? Even if in our daily lives, we are duplicitous, claiming Christ on sunday but being selfish gluttons (finacially as well as gastornomically, maybe?) all the rest of the week?

I think taking communion in an unworthy manner not only pertains to eat-and-drink free-for-alls at communion, but to living life like it is an all-you-can-get free-for-all, too. If you grab for wordly wealth, pushing and shoving everyone else out of the way to get it, isn't that acting in a manner unworthy of Christ? If you pursue fame, fortune, etc, acknowledging Jesus only by giving Him lip-service, isn't that being unworthy come communion time? If you foreclose on widows and orphans, isn't that behaving in an unworthy way? If you defile your body with sexual sin, etc? Isn't that unworthy of Christ? If you cheat people or steal?

Although I like what you wrote, I think you haven't gone far enough. It isn't just being bad at the communion table that makes one unworthy of communion, you can become unworthy by how you live your life.

Andrew · Jun 12, 2002

quote: "you can become unworthy by how you live your life."

I would have to disagree here becos you are basing the "worthiness" of a Chrisitan on what man sees. Yes, I may appear unworthy to you becos of certain things I've done or not done. But I'm more interested in how God see's me. ie in Christ -- who is my righteousness or perfect standing before God.

So it's not what I do or dont do that makes me "worthy", but what Christ has done for me. And as long as God sees me worthy becos I am in Christ, I will come bodly to the Table. And I hope all Christians will to. And as I mentioned, if one does feel unworthy or condemned, then all the more he shld drink of the cup, to remind himself of the power of the blood that keeps him clean, not his obedience or good works or confession.

ZiSunka · Jun 13, 2002

So, then, we shouldn't try to live well, because God doesn't care about sin. Is that what youa re really trying to say??

One shouldn't worry about his/her sin when going to communion, one should just laugh it off as being unimportant to God?

Do you really believe that God is indifferent to the sins of His people?

Andrew · Jun 14, 2002

Now, I thot you'd know better than to fall into the same line of thinking Paul's critic's had: "WHAT!? shall we sin that grace may abound?!"

Grace, faith and spirit fall in one category.

Law, flesh and works another.

When you hear pure grace, faith arises (becos u know u and God are so right becos of Christ), and the spirit is truly free to work thru a person to bring about genuine inward change, such as a desire to go to church, read the Bible, not do this sin etc.
That's at the crux of the pure grace message.

So people who preach pure grace are not giving others a licence to sin, but freeing up their faith and spirit for genuine inward change.

you see, both camps want the same thing -- holiness and right living -- but both camps use diff methods. One is grace, the other is basically works -- YOUR efforts and YOUR obedience, YOUR confession, YOUR willpower etc.

I advocate the former becos I believe it's Biblical and the same thing Paul was trying to do.

TruelightUK · Jun 14, 2002

Oh boy! Here we go again!

I may appear unworthy to you becos of certain things I've done or not done. But I'm more interested in how God see's me. ie in Christ -- who is my righteousness or perfect standing before God.

And just how do you appear to God if you are carrying on fornicating, acting out of greed and lying and deceiving all your business contacts on the basis that 'Jesus died for my sin, so God doesn't see it'? That is presuming upon God's grace. The kind of faith which produces no change of lifestyle, contrition for sin, and determination to act righteously is no faith at all. We all stumble and fall at times - even backslide and become compromising and complacent - without that discrediting our initial conversion. However, these things do marr our relaionship with God, hinder our prayers, and make us 'unworthy' to take communion. They are an offense against the very Body which we are told to discern. Therefore we need to heed Jesus own advice and make peace with our brethren - repent of all known sin - before presenting our gift at the altar (as ois reflected in the historical liturgy of the Church)

it's not what I do or dont do that makes me "worthy", but what Christ has done for me

True - but I am still commanded to 'examine myself' and 'confess my sin' so that I may bre freed from the contamination of sinful deeds, on the basis of His shed blood.

if one does feel unworthy or condemned, then all the more he shld drink of the cup, to remind himself of the power of the blood that keeps him clean,

Even while holding that blood in disrespect, by failing to bring His sins under it???

Feeling unworthy or condemned after having confessed one's sins is a lie from the devil and should not keep anyone from the Table of the Lord. However, feeling 'unworthy' and convicted of sin which remains unconfessed and unrepented is a very different matter - the work of the Holy Spirit on our conscience - and should drive us to our knees. However, if we are not prepared to deal with such sins - or confess them with our mouths while knowing in our heart that we have no intention of actually forsaking them - is a very different matter. A presumption upon th sanctity of His Body and Blood, which may heap judgement upon ours heads.

...the blood that keeps him clean not his obedience or good works or confession.

Of course this is at the heart of Communion - but it is not for the disobedient (who show their lack of love for Him who shed that blood - see John 14:15) or the unrepentant (who treat that Blood with disrespect and ingratitude - see Heb 10:29).

Anthony

Andrew · Jun 15, 2002

quote: "And just how do you appear to God if you are carrying on fornicating, acting out of greed and lying and deceiving all your business contacts on the basis that 'Jesus died for my sin, so God doesn't see it'? That is presuming upon God's grace."

Are you talking about sinners (non-believers) or Christians who abuse grace? I'm not interested in either class.

quote: "True - but I am still commanded to 'examine myself' and 'confess my sin'"

Where in the bible does it say that we are to confess our sins daily to stay "uncontaminated". BTW 1 Jn 1:9 is only for non-believers.

quote: "repent of all known sin - before presenting our gift at the altar"

I've not known of any Christian who has succeeded in "repenting of ALL known sin". You must be the first.

look, I'm not talking about so-called "Christians" who are living in sin or even true Christians abusing God's grace. I'm talking about the average Christian who fall's into sin every now and then (and hates it), like you and me. I wld encourage such Chrisitians to still come boldly to the Table and not feel "unworthy".

TruelightUK · Jun 15, 2002

Did I say anything about a 'religious' daily confession programme to keep us uncontaminated? No. I spoke of confessing known sin before taking communion, in order to remove obstacles between yourself and God, and to prevent undesirable consequences.

I've already addressed your reservations about 1Jn 1:9 in another thread. Other Scriptures refering to this principle include James 4:14,15; Matt 6:12. You might also wish to look at Christ's words to the various churches in the opening chapter of revelation.

As for the ability to repent of all known sin - surely that is (in principle) possible for all of us - at least in the sincere intention of our hearts (we may then slip up again later, but at the time our desire to change is right and pure). Taking Communion having confessed our sin and being honest about our apparent inability to thoroughly forsake and amend the matter will then be a means of grace to strengthen our resolve and enable us to overcome. Not to confess such matters, however, brings us, ultimately, in danger of the penalty for wilful sin, mentioned in Heb 11 - we know we have done wrong, yet harden our hearts and consciences and refuse to acknowledge the fact or seek God's help to change. In such cases, God will 'chasten' us, to try and bring us to repentence - but taking Communion in the knowledge that you are avoiding putting something right will only exacerbate the problem. What was intended as a source of blessing can, in effect, become a curse, as we actively invoke a Covenant of which we are knowingly in breach.

And of course, if a person truly is so sensitive to sin that he hates the fact of occaqsionally falling into it, he will already have repented of his failures before ever he gets to Church, so have no need to confess the matter again. Paul is telling us to take a moment to examine our consciences and allow the Lord to bring to light any outstanding matters which need to be dealt with, and the to deal with them before coming to His Table. This is not a matter of gloomy condemnation, but of hope, restoration and a new start!

Anthony

ZiSunka · Jun 17, 2002

I was thinking about this over the weekend, and it doesn't really make any sense that poor table manners at communion would cause people to fall sick and die. It has to be something more that is intended in that passage.

Can you picture God harming people for using the wrong fork or for not waiting for the host to take the first bite?

I agree with TrueLight, it is the condition of the heart that makes us unworthy, not our table manners.

Andrew · Jun 18, 2002

"I was thinking about this over the weekend, and it doesn't really make any sense that poor table manners at communion would cause people to fall sick and die. It has to be something more that is intended in that passage. "

You are right. The Bible says it's becos they failed to discern the body of the Lord. But this also means you can take the Communion with "table manners" and still fall sick, if you dont discern the Body. That was my point in my first post/link.

ZiSunka · Jun 18, 2002

Oh. I thought your point was that we shouldn't worry about sinning, because it's poor table manners that really count with God at the Lord's Table. I thought you were saying that they were unworthy because they ATE in an unworthy manner, ei, selfishly and like pigs.

Andrew · Jun 18, 2002

Lamb's Love,

Just to summarise:

1. Of course we take the communion with reverence. it's not a party.
2. But beyond this we must know what it all means -- discern the Lord's body, or fall sick and die early (which is what the passage talked abt). ie What is the bread and blood for? the value of Christ'w work etc.
3. NO Christian who love's God (hate's sin) shld feel "unworthy" at the Table becos of some "unconfessed sin", becos Paul's passage never mentioned anything about that. He was talking about unworthy "manner" not unworthy believer.

ZiSunka · Jun 19, 2002

So what is an "unworthy manner," then?

ZiSunka · Jun 19, 2002

"Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way will be guilty of sin against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 So a man should examine himself; in this way he should eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For whoever eats and drinks without recognizing the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 This is why many are sick and ill among you, and many have fallen asleep. 31 If we were properly evaluating ourselves, we would not be judged, 32 but when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord, so that we may not be condemned with the world. 33 Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that you can come together and not cause judgment." I Corinthains 11:27-34

All the commentaries I can find on this say that a person should examine himself before he takes communion, to make sure that he is doing it with intent and solemnity, with a pure heart.

I can't find any commentaries that say a person living in chronic sin shouldn't feel unworthy of communion. I think that is part of the "searching yourself" that is supposed to happen before you participate. It isn't just the manner of eating it, it more the state of your heart. If you take it frivolously, without regard to your soul or the solmenness of Christ's death, as if it were some big bacchanal, then you are taking it in an unworthy manner.

Andrew · Jun 20, 2002

"All the commentaries I can find on this say that a person should examine himself before he takes communion, to make sure that he is doing it with intent and solemnity, with a pure heart. "

Firstly, commentaries can be wrong. Trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth. I use commentaries, but I often find them old fashioned.

As to the above quote, of cse I fully agree that a person shld be "doing it with intent and solemnity". that's why i said do it with reverence, take it seriously.

"I can't find any commentaries that say a person living in chronic sin shouldn't feel unworthy of communion."

that's obvious enough. becos his own heart/conscience condemns him. also, when you make such a statement, be careful becos a Christian living in sin all the time cannot be a Christian. "How can we who are dead to sin, live in it anymore?" also, i wasnt talking about chronic sinning people, but Christians who love God hate sin but fall into sin once in a while, like you and me. The Bible is clear, if you are in Christ, there is NO condemnation. If one feels condemed, then it's becos he's condeming himself or the devil is accusing him. Then he shld tell the devil, I'm in Christ, there;s no condemnation, get lost. That's faith in the Word and exercising it, not walking by emotions.

ZiSunka · Jun 20, 2002

Trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth. I use commentaries, but I often find them old fashioned.

Yikes! Truth is eternal, not transitory! Biblically speaking, what was true 2000 years ago is still true today!

And I know of a lot of people who founded cults based on what they thought the "Holy Spirit" was telling them about "truth."

Maybe one ot two commentaries could be wrong, but I looked in 14 commentaries, ranging in date from 1690 to 2001. All agreed on the meaning of this passage. If you think you've come up with new "knowledge," you might be mistaken.

The Bible is clear, if you are in Christ, there is NO condemnation. If one feels condemed, then it's becos he's condeming himself or the devil is accusing him. Then he shld tell the devil, I'm in Christ, there;s no condemnation, get lost. That's faith in the Word and exercising it, not walking by emotions.

So we could sin the most grievious sins and still take communion, without guilt or shame?

Or a Christian finds it impossible to sin? Wow! Either way, those are the beliefs of some of the most famous cults, not the beliefs of Bible believing Christians.

Andrew · Jun 23, 2002

quote: "All agreed on the meaning of this passage. If you think you've come up with new "knowledge," you might be mistaken."

Well, then the millions of Catholics who have for centuries believed in faith plus works, Mary, purgatory are right to, by reason of your argument. Majority does not always mean right, as the 12 Israeli spies story will tell you.

quote: "So we could sin the most grievious sins and still take communion, without guilt or shame?"

you still dont seem to get it, and keep saying the same thing Paul's critics said when he preached pure grace "should we sin that grace may abound?!"

yet I'm in a way glad that you said it, since it shows I'm preaching pure grace, for that is the reaction you shld get from people who dont understnd pure grace.

quote: "Or a Christian finds it impossible to sin? Wow! Either way, those are the beliefs of some of the most famous cults, not the beliefs of Bible believing Christians."

You obviously have not read my posts carefully. I never said a Christian cannot sin. I simply said he cannot LIVE IN sin, just as scripture said.

Cults? Actually, anyone who strays from righteous faith and pure grace is being taught by demons, as Paul says in 1 Tim.

This is my last post to you on this topic as you seem to be going in circles.

ZiSunka · Jun 24, 2002

You do seem to be going in circles!

All I can say is, God cares about sin.

Truth is eternal.

And I don't like your implication that I am being taught by demons.

TruelightUK · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
Well, then the millions of Catholics who have for centuries believed in faith plus works ... are right to, by reason of your argument.

You mean like James, 1st Bishop of Jerusalem??

Of course there are errors which have crept into the churches over the years. But there is also a considerable body of divine Truth which has been honoured and preserved in the Church, and which we discard at our peril! Christianity has always resisted the individualistic revelations of particular super-spiritual enthusiasts in favour of the corporate wisdom of the Holy Spirit granted through Christ-appointed ministers. Thus in many ways 'new' ideas are to be regarded with suspicion, while 'old' truths are to be zealously guarded. In all things we are to 'test the spirits'.

Anthony

TruelightUK · Jun 24, 2002

The Bible says it's becos they failed to discern the body of the Lord. But this also means you can take the Communion with "table manners" and still fall sick, if you dont discern the Body.

Which Body are we talking about here?

Andrew appears to be assuming the 'body' we are to discern is the 'body' of beleivers - the assembled brethren (thus 'poor table manners' display a disrespectful, inconsiderate attitude to them.

However, if we understand the term to refer to the actual (physical) Body of Christ broken for our sins - represented in the Bread which we all share at communion - then the application is far wider. We are to 'discern' the fulness of what the Bread (and Wine) represent (in terms of the seriousness of sin, the terrible price of salvation, the wonder of God's grace) and amend our thinking and behaviour accordingly, rather than harden our hearts to sin and in so doing trample Christ's Body under foot, effectually despising the communion elements as trivial, commonplace things. Our attitudes to the brethren will, indeed, come into this self-scrutiny - but our wider walk with God must also be included. We must come to His Table in awe and trembling at the seriousness of the matters with which we are dealing: it is my sin (and that of the world) which nailed Christ to the Cross, so how can I commemorate His sacrifice - feeding on His Body and Blood - while continuing to nurse those sins in my heart? To do so is to turn the 'cup of blessing' into a cup of judgement.

Anthony

Clean enough for communion!

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It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

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Tilter at religious windmills

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Tilter at religious windmills

It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

Tilter at religious windmills

Tilter at religious windmills

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