Circumcision

Umaro · Apr 19, 2011

united4Peace said:
Skipping over majority of posts. Just to answer the OP's question, I have no say whether circumsizing a baby for religious reasons is right or wrong, I think that is up to the parents. That said, our boys were circ'd and I was right there. I saw the board that they were strapped down to, neither were given pain medications. One had a bell and the other had nothing, both physcians performed wonderful circ's.
I believe it is up to the parents to read as much information as possible before coming to a decision either way, one shouldn't have their son circ'd or not circ'd because of someone else's opinion.
Putting all that aside though, I have seen quite a few elderly men who have had to be circ'd and gosh does it hurt! Also maybe its just me but it seems like it takes longer to heal.
I don't regret having our boys done, and would definetly do it all over again! However I know those who have not circ'd and then had to when the child was a few years old, and they still stand by their original decision as they would not circ.
I also took in one child and had their frenulum clipped as they were tongue tied, again I know many who have never had their frenulum clipped, so it was based on my own personal research and therefore it was my decision to have my underaged child go through the surgery (which he was awake for and again never cried, was more exicted than anything as he could move his tongue more so), later I noticed my own husband has a tongue tie, yet he has never had the surgery done LOL.
If that makes me a bad mom for making decisions on behalf of my own child then so be it .

So what will you tell your child if they ever come up to you and say "I wish you didn't have me circumcised. I've done my own research and I wish it was not done to me?"

united4Peace said:
The only way a 15 year old is going to have a medical circ is if they have an infection and then yes the parents are still in control of medical decisions. The 15 year old is not strapped down, they are given anethesia and it is treated as a day surgery. Again at that age it is only done if needed!!

There's not much disagreement on medical circumcision. We're talking about for religious or aesthetic reasons, like most children are circumcised for. Should a parent be able to decide that they're 15 year old needs to be cut for religious or aesthetic reasons and force it upon him without his consent? Why is it different with a baby?

Skaloop · Apr 19, 2011

united4Peace said:
The 15 year old is not strapped down, they are given anethesia and it is treated as a day surgery. Again at that age it is only done if needed!!

But the newborn isn't given anesthesia, nor is it treated as day surgery. Or even surgery at all, in some cases. And it's done as a matter of course. A fifteen year old goes through a very specialized process to get it done, but babies, heck, just do it.

Skaloop · Apr 19, 2011

united4Peace said:
Humans are not able to remember past 3-4 years of age.

OK, so any reason not to, say, put out cigarettes on a newborn? They're not gonna remember it, after all.

selfinflikted · Apr 19, 2011

Skaloop said:
But the newborn isn't given anesthesia, nor is it treated as day surgery. Or even surgery at all, in some cases. And it's done as a matter of course. A fifteen year old goes through a very specialized process to get it done, but babies, heck, just do it.

But babies won't remember.

united4Peace · Apr 19, 2011

Umaro said:
So what will you tell your child if they ever come up to you and say "I wish you didn't have me circumcised. I've done my own research and I wish it was not done to me?"

There's not much disagreement on medical circumcision. We're talking about for religious or aesthetic reasons, like most children are circumcised for. Should a parent be able to decide that they're 15 year old needs to be cut for religious or aesthetic reasons and force it upon him without his consent? Why is it different with a baby?

Id tell them the same thing I would if they came up to me and asked why I had their frenulum snipped (tongue), that I made the decision on research (I work in the medical field) and decided that it was the best decision for them as they were not able to make that type of decision at that time.

Of course a 15 year old should not be forced, however the only way a 15 year old would be circ'd in our society is if for medical reasons, and of course they would be under anethesia just as many are that I see come in and are done (2 yrs and 80 yrs +)! Why do I personally believe it is different , because they remember and it is very painful.
I made the decision to have ours done so that they would never have to go through having the procedure at an older age, espeasally after seeing multiple older boys and men having to have surgery.
Just my opinion, not looking for an aurgument as everyone is going to have their own opinion, just like on the snipping of one's frenulum (my husbands mother disagreed with the procedure so his tongue was never fixed) and I know others who have it done (boys and girls) as it helps with speech, cleaning of the mouth, eating, etc. Or like the decision I made to have our children immunized. I know plenty of others who are against it and have not had their children immunized or the decision of parents that have their children immunized against HPV (now being recommended for boys) which I will definetly do as again I am in charge of them until they are 18. When they have their own children they will be able to make their own decisions on how to raise them and what medical procedures they will consent for concerning their own children.

united4Peace · Apr 19, 2011

Skaloop said:
But the newborn isn't given anesthesia, nor is it treated as day surgery. Or even surgery at all, in some cases. And it's done as a matter of course. A fifteen year old goes through a very specialized process to get it done, but babies, heck, just do it.

Some babies are given anethesia, however mine were not and they never even cried.
Our oldest wasnt given anethesia either when I made the decision to have his frenulum clipped (under tongue) and again never cried-speech therapist highly advised me against the procedure, however again it was a decision made as a mom who did research and decided it was right for my child before I jumped into anything.

united4Peace · Apr 19, 2011

Skaloop said:
OK, so any reason not to, say, put out cigarettes on a newborn? They're not gonna remember it, after all.

That doesnt even apply. Putting cigarrettes out on a baby isnt even on the same level as making a medical decision for an infant.

united4Peace · Apr 19, 2011

selfinflikted said:
But babies won't remember.

No they don't remember, humans cannot remember past the age of 3 or 4 years old.
Do you remember the colour of your crib??

selfinflikted · Apr 19, 2011

united4Peace said:
No they don't remember, humans cannot remember past the age of 3 or 4 years old.
Do you remember the colour of your crib??

Yep. I sure do. And I remember being in that crib as well. The crib was stained wood, with a white and yellow thatched pattern on the "mattress" part. I had a mobile with plush animals hanging over said crib, that played a lullaby (which I still remember) when wound up. There was also a plush clown on the wall directly above said crib, holding a handful of plush balloons.

Not sure I buy into the "Can't remember anything before 4 years of age." nonsense. I certainly do remember things from that age and before. Admittedly, though, I do not recall the circumcision process

Skaloop · Apr 19, 2011

united4Peace said:
No they don't remember, humans cannot remember past the age of 3 or 4 years old.
Do you remember the colour of your crib??

They may not remember it consciously, but can you show that undergoing the pain of such a procedure at such a young age does not impact the mental development of the child?

And like selfinflikted, I have memories of before I was 3. Not just things I think are memories, either, because they have been verified by my mother.

selfinflikted · Apr 19, 2011

Skaloop said:
And like selfinflikted, I have memories of before I was 3. Not just things I think are memories, either, because they have been verified by my mother.

Me too. I distinctly remember thing from when I was 3. My first major "accident" happened when I was 3, which I remember as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. I also remember another major accident I had when I was 4, again, very clearly. I'm interested now though... I would like to looking into memory retention from that age.

Caitlin.ann · Apr 19, 2011

selfinflikted said:
Me too. I distinctly remember thing from when I was 3. My first major "accident" happened when I was 3, which I remember as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. I also remember another major accident I had when I was 4, again, very clearly. I'm interested now though... I would like to looking into memory retention from that age.

I think it would be because of the trauma related to the incident that you remember so clearly. Which of course, circumcision at that age would be a "trauma". But to clarify I think trauma would be the only reason you'd remember something so young.

united4Peace · Apr 19, 2011

selfinflikted said:
Me too. I distinctly remember thing from when I was 3. My first major "accident" happened when I was 3, which I remember as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. I also remember another major accident I had when I was 4, again, very clearly. I'm interested now though... I would like to looking into memory retention from that age.

Yes, lots of people remember stuff when they are 3 or 4 years old. Prior to that age however I find it very doubtful that one would remember something, memories people have of something that occured at 5 months are usually there from hearing stories from others.
No one, absolutley no one that I know remembers being a week old or a month old or 5 months old!

Skaloop · Apr 19, 2011

united4Peace said:
Yes, lots of people remember stuff when they are 3 or 4 years old. Prior to that age however I find it very doubtful that one would remember something, memories people have of something that occured at 5 months are usually there from hearing stories from others.
No one, absolutley no one that I know remembers being a week old or a month old or 5 months old!

And sometimes child victims of sexual assault don't remember it happening, either. The whole "black out the trauma" idea. Doesn't mean that just because they don't consciously remember it that it's not a traumatic experience that affects their emotional development.

Rebekka · Apr 20, 2011

united4Peace said:
No they don't remember, humans cannot remember past the age of 3 or 4 years old.

I have memories from when I was 2 years (and one month) old.

Umaro · Apr 20, 2011

united4Peace said:
Id tell them the same thing I would if they came up to me and asked why I had their frenulum snipped (tongue), that I made the decision on research (I work in the medical field) and decided that it was the best decision for them as they were not able to make that type of decision at that time.

But if they never wanted it done to begin with, and it's entirely unnecessary, isn't that just like telling them "tough luck, too bad?" That doesn't seem very ethical. If I cut my kid's ears off so they won't get their heads stuck in railings, "I thought it was the best decision" isn't going to cut it when they realize what I did to them later.

Of course a 15 year old should not be forced, however the only way a 15 year old would be circ'd in our society is if for medical reasons, and of course they would be under anethesia just as many are that I see come in and are done (2 yrs and 80 yrs +)! Why do I personally believe it is different , because they remember and it is very painful.

Click to expand...

Why would the pain matter only when they can remember it? You could easily give a 15 year old full anesthesia and force him to do it, and you'd be in exactly the same situation as the infant. If a parent can force an infant to have a medically unnecessary procedure, it follows they would be able to force a 15 year old to have a medically unnecessary procedure.

And what about people like me who are still very, very bitter about having it forced upon us? Why is your 15 year old getting out of a week or so of pain more important than my entire life being bitter about being incomplete? I mean, I want a vasectomy, but I wouldn't ever have wished my parents did it to me as a baby so I could avoid the pain. Why would medically unnecessary circumcision be different? Would you let a person give their baby a vasectomy?

I made the decision to have ours done so that they would never have to go through having the procedure at an older age, espeasally after seeing multiple older boys and men having to have surgery.

Click to expand...

Why do you assume they'd have it done later at all? Most men live just fine with their foreskins intact.

Click to expand...

united4Peace · Apr 20, 2011

Umaro said:
united4Peace said:

Id tell them the same thing I would if they came up to me and asked why I had their frenulum snipped (tongue), that I made the decision on research (I work in the medical field) and decided that it was the best decision for them as they were not able to make that type of decision at that time.

But if they never wanted it done to begin with, and it's entirely unnecessary, isn't that just like telling them "tough luck, too bad?" That doesn't seem very ethical. If I cut my kid's ears off so they won't get their heads stuck in railings, "I thought it was the best decision" isn't going to cut it when they realize what I did to them later.
See thats where we differ as I believe any of the medical procedures that I had done to them are necessary. That is why I mentioned about the frenulum (skin under the tongue) as many dont find that a necessary procedure, yet after research I found it would benifit in many ways as I mentioned. So would you be upset with your parents if they had your frenulum snipped so that you had more movement of your tongue even though plenty get by without that procedure ever being done?

Why would the pain matter only when they can remember it? You could easily give a 15 year old full anesthesia and force him to do it, and you'd be in exactly the same situation as the infant. If a parent can force an infant to have a medically unnecessary procedure, it follows they would
be able to force a 15 year old to have a medically unnecessary procedure.
Though they are given anethesia for a needed circ as older boys or men, when the anethesia wears off it is painful!

And what about people like me who are still very, very bitter about having it forced upon us? Why is your 15 year old getting out of a week or so of pain more important than my entire life being bitter about being incomplete? I mean, I want a vasectomy, but I wouldn't ever have wished my parents did it to me as a baby so I could avoid the pain. Why would medically unnecessary circumcision be different? Would you let a person give their baby a vasectomy?
Im sorry your bitter, no guy that I know personally that was circ'd as a baby finds any trouble with the decision that their parents made. (I said personally, just to clarify-and I do know lots of men personally).
I consider it necessary as I have seen too many older boys and men be done later in life and I do not want to risk that for my child.

Why do you assume they'd have it done later at all? Most men live just fine with their foreskins intact.

Click to expand...

I have seen many men come in to be circ'd and I have taken care of those Circ's, and it is much more complicated than an infants. When our boys were done the care was easy, when I care for the circ'd men that I work with the healing takes longer, they are in pain, they are at risk for infection (more so), at risk for bleeding as many are on blood thinners.
No way am I having our children go through that later in life!

Click to expand...

united4Peace · Apr 20, 2011

Skaloop said:
And sometimes child victims of sexual assault don't remember it happening, either. The whole "black out the trauma" idea. Doesn't mean that just because they don't consciously remember it that it's not a traumatic experience that affects their emotional development.

As I recall they had some people down in the States that were remembering sexual abuse, later it was discovered that the memories had been implanted by their pyscologist. Many families were torn apart because of what happened. A child is very capable of telling where they were hurt when it comes to sexual assault, and yes sexual assault plays a huge role in emotional development!
My kids are just fine, happy, intelligent and have absolutley no memory. I tell them about the procedure though all the time, however they also have access to many of my books and video's for nursing!
Guess they'll be one up on many of their friends in the human development area...lol

Umaro · Apr 22, 2011

united4Peace said:
See thats where we differ as I believe any of the medical procedures that I had done to them are necessary. That is why I mentioned about the frenulum (skin under the tongue) as many dont find that a necessary procedure, yet after research I found it would benifit in many ways as I mentioned. So would you be upset with your parents if they had your frenulum snipped so that you had more movement of your tongue even though plenty get by without that procedure ever being done?

Despite what you believe, it is not a necessary procedure for the vast majority of men. It is an optional procedure.

But to answer your question, the tongue issue would depend. If it was because there was some medical abnormality, then I would be fine with it, just like I am fine with circumcision for things like phimosis. However, if it was done because "now there's an even lower chance of you biting your tongue, but you can't taste as well" then yes, I would be angry. I had no medical issues with my foreskin, but it was removed anyways. That is what I have a problem with. A voluntary procedure was not voluntary for me for no real reason.

Though they are given anethesia for a needed circ as older boys or men, when the anethesia wears off it is painful!

But again, why would you assume they would need a circumcision? Only about 1% of adults have foreskin retraction problems, and UTI rates are only 1 in 100, and getting one can be cleared up by a round of antibiotics. Is that really worth forcing your child to have decreased sexual sensation for the rest of his life on the off chance he's in that 1%? We teach girls how to clean down there, why is a sensitivity depriving procedure the default for male infants? Especially when nowhere even recommends it be done anymore. If you hadn't cut your boys, odds are they would never be cut, and not have a problem with it.

Im sorry your bitter, no guy that I know personally that was circ'd as a baby finds any trouble with the decision that their parents made. (I said personally, just to clarify-and I do know lots of men personally).
I consider it necessary as I have seen too many older boys and men be done later in life and I do not want to risk that for my child.

There are plenty of men who are upset about it. In fact, there's an entire movement of men upset enough that they hang weights from themselves for several years in order to try to get just the appearance of having a normal penis. The way I see it, if given the choice on their own, your sons could have it done if they wanted as adults, and I wouldn't have it done as an adult. It's win-win, but forcing it on babies makes it win-lose for no real reason.

Woden84 · Apr 22, 2011

united4peace, Have you ever seen an adult woman who had to go through a mastectomy? I'm sure that that is at least as unpleasant as an adult going through a circumcision. So, should we give all female babies double mastectomies so the extremely few of them that would've required them as adults don't have to go through them?

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