Circumcision

Ortho_Cat · Apr 7, 2011

I think this is a really tough question. Obviously in the case for women it is regarded as abuse.

Also, it's not like you can just say, "well, i'll let him decide for himself' because what male when he is old enough to decide for himself would actually go through with the procedure?? Not likely...

Wiccan_Child · Apr 7, 2011

ortho_cat said:
I think this is a really tough question. Obviously in the case for women it is regarded as abuse.

If it's obviously abuse for women, why isn't it obviously abuse for men? I'm not saying you don't think it's abuse for men, but still, why do you think it's not obvious?

ortho_cat said:
Also, it's not like you can just say, "well, i'll let him decide for himself' because what male when he is old enough to decide for himself would actually go through with the procedure?? Not likely...

Aside from medical reasons like phimosis, I agree with you: what adult male would want a perfectly functional and harmless part of his genitalia removed?

Wiccan_Child · Apr 7, 2011

KatAutumn said:
My husband is sitting here and he says circumcision whining is stupid. Those are his words. He is glad he's circumcised and insists it has had zero negative impact on his life. He's of the opinion that if you don't want to circumcise your son, that's fine. He says if you want to circumcise your son, that's fine also. He also wanted me to say that if you're a guy and you've been circumcised it's really goofy to whinge about it now, unless the procedure went horribly wrong and rendered you completely unable to experience sexual pleasure. So, there ya go. Straight out of a dude's mouth to my keyboard.

Good for him. Unfortunately, his blasé attitude to circumcising unconsenting infants doesn't remove the immorality of the act. That he had a successful circumcision, and that he is OK with it, is irrelevant: the fact remains that there are many men who are angry with the fact that someone surgically altered their genitals without their consent.

KatAutumn said:
Something else I also find interesting - most men who feel anger over being circumcised as infants are under the age of thirty or just over, whereas most men I know over the age of, say, thirty-five are either completely unmoved, or even grateful, that they were circumcised. I wonder if it's a generational thing.

It's probably more to do with your local cultural than anything else.

Ortho_Cat · Apr 7, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
If it's obviously abuse for women, why isn't it obviously abuse for men? I'm not saying you don't think it's abuse for men, but still, why do you think it's not obvious?

Aside from medical reasons like phimosis, I agree with you: what adult male would want a perfectly functional and harmless part of his genitalia removed?

well, obviously if the child is born into a jewish family, it is a cultural thing.

Also, it is debatable whether there are positive health reasons (e.g. hygiene) to be considered.

Lastly, there is still at least in American society a bit of a 'stigma' if you will against uncircumcised men, at least from what i've heard.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 7, 2011

ortho_cat said:
well, obviously if the child is born into a jewish family, it is a cultural thing.

Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to persuade the Jewish communities to give up circumcision, especially when Jewish law requires circumcision within eight days of birth.

ortho_cat said:
Also, it is debatable whether there are positive health reasons (e.g. hygiene) to be considered.

Agreed. People who claim that circumcision helps with hygiene strike me as people who don't wash very often

ortho_cat said:
Lastly, there is still at least in American society a bit of a 'stigma' if you will against uncircumcised men, at least from what i've heard.

I've heard that too, and I've spoken to women from the US who're visiting Europe, and they're shocked at the prevalence of foreskin! I never knew circumcision was so prevalent in the US until then, which shocked me in turn. Over here, at least, circumcision is rarely seen, and only then in ethnic and religious minorities, primarily Jewish, Islamic, and Middle-Eastern men.

I have a question: in the US, is it customary to ask for the doctor to ask about circumcision when a baby is born? Or is it done automatically unless the parents explicitly request otherwise? What's the etiquette?

OGM · Apr 9, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
I have a question: in the US, is it customary to ask for the doctor to ask about circumcision when a baby is born? Or is it done automatically unless the parents explicitly request otherwise? What's the etiquette?

I have some very good news for you Wiccan_Child. Data collected from hospitals and printed by the Center for Disease Control shows this:

2006: 56% of children born is hospitals were circumcised
2009: 32.5% of children born in hospitals were circumcised.

Here is the link:
Steep Drop Seen in Circumcisions in U.S. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/health/research/17circ.html

That is a huge drop in the period of only 3 years So the rate of circumcision in the U.S. appears to be plumbing like a proverbial rock. In a few years I can see it being similar to the rates found by its European cousins. Here are some interesting quotes from the same New York Times article.

"Greater awareness about female circumcision may have influenced parents as well, she said, asking, How can you think its O.K. to cut little boys, when you are horrified by the idea of cutting little girls?

Also from that same article is a fact I did not know.

Several state Medicaid programs stopped covering circumcision after the academy issued its current policy in 1999, and Dr. Brady said that may be one reason fewer parents opt for the procedure. ... As well the anti-circumcision movement ...

This next part of the article I found really interesting because although it was referring to the United States; it would seem the same statement may to able to much of the world:

Yet even advocates of circumcision acknowledge that an aggressive circumcision drive in the United States would be unlikely to have a drastic impact on H.I.V. rates here, since the procedure does not seem to protect those at greatest risk, men who have sex with men.

And while studies in Africa found that circumcision reduced the risk of a mans becoming infected by an H.I.V.-positive female partner, it is not clear that a circumcised man with H.I.V. would be less likely to infect a woman.

Okay if any one reading this is an executive in the insurance industry, I have a way for you to save a lot of money. That is to deny coverage of routine circumcisions if a defect does not exist.

katautumn · Apr 9, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
Good for him. Unfortunately, his blasé attitude to circumcising unconsenting infants doesn't remove the immorality of the act. That he had a successful circumcision, and that he is OK with it, is irrelevant: the fact remains that there are many men who are angry with the fact that someone surgically altered their genitals without their consent.

But here is the rub - there are also a lot of men out there angry that their parents didn't have them circumcised. Granted, we could say they could go and have it done as a consenting adult; however, at that point the procedure is expensive, extremely painful and comes with far more complications than infant circumcision. Still, it could be said that what is done cannot be undone, which would make not circumcising the better choice.

It's probably more to do with your local cultural than anything else.

Not sure. I think it's more of an age thing, really. There are plenty of uncircumcised men in the South, simply because many grandfathers were born at home in rural areas and then it only seemed natural that their son's genitals not be altered, and so on. That and circumcision is still very much a Jewish rite of passage and there's not a large Jewish demographic in the Southeastern United States.

Umaro · Apr 9, 2011

KatAutumn said:
But here is the rub - there are also a lot of men out there angry that their parents didn't have them circumcised. Granted, we could say they could go and have it done as a consenting adult; however, at that point the procedure is expensive, extremely painful and comes with far more complications than infant circumcision. Still, it could be said that what is done cannot be undone, which would make not circumcising the better choice.

Let's not pretend like it's some grueling ordeal to have it done. It's a week at most with ice on your balls. I mean, I want a vasectomy and that's about the same amount of recovery, but you don't see me wishing it was done to me at birth and the choice made for me because it's such a terrible experience.

It seems much more reasonable to me that people who want to be cut deal with a week of physical discomfort than people who don't want to be cut dealing with a life of mental discomfort.

Rebekka · Apr 11, 2011

How can we know that the procedure is more painful for adults than for infants? Infants can't talk yet.

OGM · Apr 11, 2011

Rebekka said:
How can we know that the procedure is more painful for adults than for infants? Infants can't talk yet.

We can't know for sure.

b&wpac7 · Apr 11, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to persuade the Jewish communities to give up circumcision, especially when Jewish law requires circumcision within eight days of birth.

I'd say it's going to be impossible among religious Jews. Remember that to a religious Jew this is a direct commandment from God so that Jewish sons remember the covenant. Also, whenever it is attempted to be forced on a Jewish population, it actually increases the amount of religious Jews and, therefore, increases the commitment to circumcision. It's also going to be much, much harder to stop since Jews do not perform this at a hospital usually.

OGM · Apr 11, 2011

Some of the Reformed Jews where I live use a needle to draw a ceremonial drop of blood instead of performing an actual circumcision.

b&wpac7 · Apr 11, 2011

dnp200450 said:
Some of the Reformed Jews where I live use a needle to draw a ceremonial drop of blood instead of performing an actual circumcision.

That would not be viewed as acceptable to Orthodox and most Conservative.

OGM · Apr 11, 2011

b&wpac7 said:
That would not be viewed as acceptable to Orthodox and most Conservative.

True but there are a very large number of Reformed Jews where I live. Often times the children of strict religion parents don't follow traditions as much. This appears to be one of them.

b&wpac7 · Apr 11, 2011

dnp200450 said:
True but there are a very large number of Reformed Jews where I live. Often times the children of strict religion parents don't follow traditions as much. This appears to be one of them.

Well, we were told that it is always only a small remnant to keep the Torah. Looks like those Reform Jews are marching slowly away.

Rebekka · Apr 11, 2011

dnp200450 said:
We can't know for sure.

Well, then there is no argument for choosing infant circumcision over adult circumcision.

OGM · Apr 11, 2011

b&wpac7 said:
Well, we were told that it is always only a small remnant to keep the Torah. Looks like those Reform Jews are marching slowly away.

One reason is that many of the Reformed Jews are marrying Gentiles. Sometimes the Gentile parent will not allow the infant to be circumcised. I could see this being especially true if the Gentile parent is from a country where circumcision is rare.

Rebekka said:
Well, then there is no argument for choosing infant circumcision over adult circumcision.

Sounds good to me Rebekka! I would just wait until the boy is of legal age and have him decide. Though in countries where infant circumcision is not routine; very few adult males decide to have the procedure performed on them unless they have a known congenital defect. Why fix something that aint broken?

Rebekka · Apr 11, 2011

dnp200450 said:
Sounds good to me Rebekka! I would just wait until the boy is of legal age and have him decide. Though in countries where infant circumcision is not routine; very few adult males decide to have the procedure performed on them unless they have a known congenital defect. Why fix something that aint broken?

My thoughts exactly.

b&wpac7 · Apr 11, 2011

dnp200450 said:
One reason is that many of the Reformed Jews are marrying Gentiles. Sometimes the Gentile parent will not allow the infant to be circumcised. I could see this being especially true if the Gentile parent is from a country where circumcision is rare.

Generally it's just Reform Jew, not Reformed. The movement is the Reform movement.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 11, 2011

KatAutumn said:
But here is the rub - there are also a lot of men out there angry that their parents didn't have them circumcised. Granted, we could say they could go and have it done as a consenting adult; however, at that point the procedure is expensive, extremely painful and comes with far more complications than infant circumcision. Still, it could be said that what is done cannot be undone, which would make not circumcising the better choice.

I'd be surprised if circumcision was expensive, but then, there's something to be said for our socialised healthcare I agree with others in that it's not exactly established that babies experience any less pain than a grown man, but it is established that childhood trauma can have long-lasting physiological and psychological remnants. As for complications, that could well be true.

But even if it were more expensive, painful, and even dangerous to get adult circumcisions, does that warrant the mass circumcision of infants? I'm not aware of any complication that arises from having a foreskin that could justify preventative circumcisions en masse.

KatAutumn said:
Not sure. I think it's more of an age thing, really. There are plenty of uncircumcised men in the South, simply because many grandfathers were born at home in rural areas and then it only seemed natural that their son's genitals not be altered, and so on. That and circumcision is still very much a Jewish rite of passage and there's not a large Jewish demographic in the Southeastern United States.

A sign of the times, perhaps. If circumcision is on the decrease, then those who were born just before it became unfashionable to circumcise one's children would grow up in a culture where circumcision is no longer the norm, where people are actively opposed to it - and, thus, they'd be angry that they were subjected to what is now seen as a 'bad' thing.

But this is, of course, very culturally specific - you may well live in a place where the circumcision downturn occurred 30-40 years ago, hence why you see angry 35-year-old circumcised men.

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