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Circumcision?

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Flashskeletal

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Constant witness:

I am missing your point regarding the uncircumsised man being too sensitive and thus "less" sensitive to the female's "needs". Sorry. Without being to graphic do you mind explaining. I've often wondered what he mean and sometimes I though it might men that an uncircumsized man could not handle certain sexual activities that a circumsized man could. However, my arguement back to him is that a more sensitive male in this area would be more in tune to his body, preventing release, and thus being more sensitive to his wife.
 
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.chrys.

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Would it be all right with you if I addressed this in a PM?
 
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.chrys.

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I appreciate your opinion on this, but it's my opinion that it might matter greatly to my son in the future whether or not he has his foreskin. For me to choose to remove it, is for me to take his own personal choice away.

I cannot see comparing this to drinking alcohol. If, perhaps, we were to add the component of having a person's tastebuds removed, then the comparison might be somewhat applicable.

While I agree that a person's enjoyment of sex depends on a great deal of other things as well, the role of the foreskin also may play a part. It's nothing that should be eliminated from the discussion simply because it isn't the "end all, be all" for sexual satisfaction.
 
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.chrys.

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Tropical Wilds said:
So if somebody were to say "I've known several people who had foreskins who found sex less enjoyable, which is why I opted to circumsice my son" you'd consider that a valid reason to circumcise?
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I would use this information as part of my decision, yes; coupled with other information regarding health concerns, pain infliction, and appearance.
I, too, have heard of accounts such as these men described to your husband. In the research I've done, I've found that these are typically accounts of men whose foreskins were not retracted enough through their child-hood and youth; so that by the time they reached adult-hood, their foreskins were not prepared for mature sexual relations. I'm certain this was not the case for ALL the accounts as were reported to your husband, as well as not the case for all the accounts as were presented to me in my research. In talking with our pediatrician, however, he assured us that it was likely the case for MOST of the men who report such accounts. I would view it as a viable addition to the argument supporting circumcision, yes. I would take it into consideration and further my research (as I did when our son was born).
 
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heart of peace

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While I realize there are several definitions for sexual and sensual, I would have hoped you would have understood I did not mean the erotic version of these definitions. I am confused by your response as I don't understand why anyone would assume that I would ever refer to the erotic definitions of said words. In regards to bf being a sensual experience, I was referring to the version of sensual "of or pertaining to the senses or physical sensation; sensory" - skin to skin contact where one's child is suckling and receiving his sustenance is very much an act that involves one's senses and thus is a sensual act. By sexual, I was alluding to the definition "of or relating to or characterized by sexuality" and a child's genital area is what defines your child's sex (male/female). Are you in the US? I ask because this is a common result of being reared in a culture that stemmed from a Puritanical basis.

I grew up first generation European and women casually hold hands and there is no negative thoughts towards such affection between females.

Really, when I look at any baby, or even picture my own future baby, I've never thought "Hey man, I hope that when you're of age, you'll really have lots of fun having sex, because man oh man, it's great."
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Again, your choice of words is quite bizarre to me. I don't even think of intimacy with my husband in such terms. Put in those terms, it places such a vulgarness to the act. What I think when I look at my child is that I pray that I can raise him to enter the holy union of marriage and the holy act of sexual intercourse with his wife as a means to obtaining a physical union with her and that it will bring them spiritually closer together. That he can utilize sexual intercourse as another means of expressing the depth of his love for his mate.


Um, well I don't put drinking alcohol in the same category of sexual intercourse (which is not what I was referring to when I said sexual btw). Sexual intercourse brings about new life on earth, which is part of God's commands to us (Be fruitful and multiply). Drinking alcohol (casually) does nothing for our spiritual lives and I could never nor would I ever equate drinking alcohol with the act of sexual intercourse in a Godly relationship.


Anyhow, just because I approach things differently in regards to human sexuality than you do does not make me strange or vulgar (although I must say after reading your comments "I'm going to be a horrible parent" and "Hey man, have lots of fun having sex", etc I feel alarmed as I need to be able to express myself without another person implying that the views I hold are vulgar). I hope maybe now you understand where I was coming from when I made my comments. People seeing things differently than you may be strange to you but that does not mean it is a strange viewpoint in general.


ETA: I just noticed that I don't see a child icon next to your name. I don't want to make any assumptions but have you ever breastfed an infant?
 
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Flashskeletal

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In regard to the topic of men having more sexual pleasure after circumcision, I have heard the exact opposite. I knew two men personally, and have a handful of accounts on the internet where men reported that sexual pleasure decreased after adult circumcision. Now with this said, this is not a scientific poll nor does a handful of testimonies marshal any type of solid comparision group. But I have heard the opposite – my friend stated that being uncircumcised was a much greater experiences because the gland was so much more sensitive and having foreskin does add another sexual elements.
Regardless, MsDahl makes some great points – at the end of the day, its all about sexual union – which should be sacred and is much more important than circusmiozed versus uncircumcised. However, I also agree with constant witness, there were many variables that went through my mind when we decided to circumcise our boys (although I’m not circumcised). I’ve had two problems – one has been yeast infections – many and some have lasted up to month (very uncomfortable) and the research clearly outlines that uncircumcised men do get more yeast infections and longer yeast infection bouts. However, I think the trade-off is that there is more sensitivity with uncircumcised men, which I still think can be a good thing in regard to control and being respectful to the needs of one’s wife. However, circumcised men are more clean and deal with less complications, such as yeast infections.
 
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.chrys.

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Tea said:
What utter rubbish. Another fable and scare mongering about circ'ing.
Good grief what will they think of next.
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Can you please explain exactly what is scare mongering about this otherwise civil discussion? It was never my intention to present my ideas as scare mongering, or to dissuade anyone from making a rational decision regarding the circumcision or non-circumcision of their offspring. My opinions were based on a lot of written material, discussion between men and women, and consultation with a pediatrician and a family practitioner.

Though you may perceive it as utter rubbish, it's merely informational. I encourage you, or anyone who's considering circumcision to research the topic in depth before making the decision.

Assuredly, you would agree to rational decision making.
 
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ClausJohn

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Removal of the foreskin for "sanitary" reasons makes about as much sense as chopping of your head to no longer have to brush your teeth...

As a german who frequents saunas i can say that circumcision in germany (and most likely in europe in general) is very, very, very rare. It is mostly done for real, acute medical reasons or - by choice - by *adults* that choose to be circumcized.
And yet we are not foul-smelling monsters full of diseases in our pants. Thanks to the miracle of SOAP!

I cannot understand that this sort of mutilation is not considered a crime...as it would be if it was - for example - the tip of a finger.

While it seems to be obvious that there are men out there that are quite unhappy with the fact that their parents mutilated them, i dare you to find a guy complaining "I wish my parents had circumcised me!". No, he doesn't even need to complain, he can get the surgery himself.
 
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united4Peace

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I dont know how it works in the States but here in Canada we have to pay for Circumsision...and its the choice of the parent...we were given both sides presented and allowed time to make a decision...a fair one and we choose what we did (in our case we circumsized-no painkillers were used as the nurse and doctors said tht the baby did not feel pain that they cried because they were being held down...took one clip and they were done-oldest had a bell, 2nd had nothing)

That said I know others who chose not to...some ended up having to circumsize later(very very rare), others never did...(none were or werent done for religious reasons btw)

As a parent all I can say is go by your own gut, what feels right to you as parents and what you both agree on(it was the same when I had my sons tongue clipped, I had people breathing down my back saying NO NO NO...and others saying yes...hub has a tongue tie and never has had his tongue clipped)...not by what anyone else has done...

Goodluck
 
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Tea

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Though you may perceive it as utter rubbish, it's merely informational. I encourage you, or anyone who's considering circumcision to research the topic in depth before making the decision
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Do not presume, ever, that this subject has not been looked into or researched before hand. Also it is a bit late to be giving me this advice as all of my boys are circ'ed, and the eldest is 21, the youngest is 1yr. I also am married to a man for over 25 years who also is circ'ed, hence my statement about the above being "utter rubbish".
It was not you who was shunned, had doors slammed in your face, verbally abused, and ridiculed for having your children circ'ed, especially when it was by people who had never had to make that decision or by people who didn't even have children.
If you have read this whole thread, you would have read where my sister, who is the educated one, and has the doctorate, didn't circ her children because she knew better, and then because of constant infections requiring hospitalization, had all her boys circ'ed.
You would have also read post 43, which is more of the "scare tactics" and offensive statements that are used. For every "research paper, and study" done against circ'ing, I can find just as many debunking the nay sayers.

If our God requested this of His covenant people, regardless of whether you believe it was only for the Jews and not for the Gentiles, why would he give this command that would make His man deformed? in what ever way you want to percieve this "deformity"? The God we serve is a God of righteousness, love and compassion, not a God that would deliberately "mutilate" His men. It just doesn't make sense to me.

It is also interesting that the people who are most upset about this issue, are people who don't circ. In all of the circles that I have been in, I am yet to hear any one who believes in circ'ing, berate someone who hasn't circ'ed their kids, but I have heard and experienced many the other way around.

Personally it is a decision that neither myself or my husband have ever regreted doing, and over the years have never had second thoughts about. Sadly though, my sister cannot say the same.
Tracey
 
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.chrys.

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Tea said:
Do not presume, ever, that this subject has not been looked into or researched before hand.
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I never made that presumption about you, or anyone. The only things I've done in my post are to encourage people to look into the matter for themselves and to recognize that there is research and opinion available that supports the idea of non-circumcision.
Also it is a bit late to be giving me this advice as all of my boys are circ'ed, and the eldest is 21, the youngest is 1yr. I also am married to a man for over 25 years who also is circ'ed, hence my statement about the above being "utter rubbish".
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My encouragement to seek a well-founded decision was for anyone reading this thread who might be making that decision.
It was not you who was shunned, had doors slammed in your face, verbally abused, and ridiculed for having your children circ'ed, especially when it was by people who had never had to make that decision or by people who didn't even have children.
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Let's hope that people who have never had to make that decision have an opportunity to hear the arguments for and against circumcision. Let's hope that by reading threads like these, they may have a better understanding of the pro's and con's of circumcision, and of the very real emotions tied into making such decisions. My condolences for the pain and suffering her children received because of the decisions she made. Likewise, you have my condolences for the ridicule you received for making the decision for circumcising your sons.
You would have also read post 43, which is more of the "scare tactics" and offensive statements that are used. For every "research paper, and study" done against circ'ing, I can find just as many debunking the nay sayers.
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Which is why it is so important that both the arguments for and against be presented--such that persons who are in the throes of making this decision are well-informed.
I have no intention of getting into religious discussion regarding circumcision, but I will say this: what of the fact that God created men perfectly in His image, and did not require Adam (who was made perfect) to have this procedure? I do pray that you don't feel as if I've berated you in any way. I don't intend to do so, and I truly respect your decision that you've made; from what you've said, it was well-informed. For what it's worth, the reason many people who choose not to circumcise their sons are defensive of their choice is that circumcision is expected of them and they are often ridiculed as well. Perhaps it's simply a matter of the "grass is always greener"?
Personally it is a decision that neither myself or my husband have ever regreted doing, and over the years have never had second thoughts about. Sadly though, my sister cannot say the same.
Tracey
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I am pleased to hear that your decision is one that yo don't regret. Is it possible that you might regard my decision in an equal light--well-informed and "right" for my family?
 
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jgonz

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I also find that the anti-circ'ing people tend to be rather nasty about(and to) those of us who do circ, while those of us who circ our boys could care Less if someone else circ's their boys or not. I've run into quite a bit of judgmentalism myself for circ'ing my boys over the years... as well as being judged for homeschooling, having a large family, being a Believer, and extended breastfeeding. (I'm sure there are more things... oh yes, I guess I should add having my ears pierced more than once, my teenage boy having 2 earrings in each ear, my teenage daughter having her nose pierced, and having 2 tattoos myself. Oh, and being pregnant at 48. lol)
 
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seamonster

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I also find that the anti-circ'ing people tend to be rather nasty about(and to) those of us who do circ, while those of us who circ our boys could care Less if someone else circ's their boys or not.
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I'm sorry you've been judged . I've run in to the exact opposite of that judgment. I'm constantly told that I've messed up my son's life by not circ'ing him. I think it's more important to make the right choices for our families and worry less about what other people think.
 
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Flashskeletal

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To me, there are strengths and weaknesses to both decisions. I agree with Johnclaus there is a stereotype of uncircumcised being smelly and unclean. I do not want to reinforce this stereotype. However, I know there is scientific evidence that men who are uncircumcised do get more yeast infections and that recently the American Academy of Pediatrics did underscore that foreskins is a factor in an increase in HIV and AIDS (however, from a Christian perspective if every man waited to have sex until he was married, the HIV issue would render itself irrelevant). Like I shared, I’ve had real struggles with yeast infection and a good friend of mine who is a medical doctor tells me it’s MUCH worse in uncircumcised men. I do think it is healthier to get circumcised.
With this said, however, I think that men who are not circumcised do get some advantage in sexual activity. I think being more sensitive does have advantages – like more control (and being more sensitive to female needs, not just pounding away and being self focused) and it adds a few sexual options. I have come to believe that one reason men pound away is that many of them are circumcised and that is how they get sensation (and some women like the pounding!). However, we choose to circumcise our boys because I, along with other males in my family, have had some real problems with yeast infections.

I also think Constant Witness makes an important point -- the key is to make an educated decisions.
However, at the end of the day, I really do not think its huge deal. Men who are circumcised still enjoy sex and sex should be based on emotional union – not sexual acts per se. Men who are uncircumcised are still clean and not all have the problems I have experienced. And in the gospel scheme, it really does not matter?
 
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EbonNelumbo

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I never expected this thread to get so big

I'm due any day now (or night, by what the discharge woman at Labor and Delivery said when she told me, Yes I was having contractions, but no, I was not in "real" labor yet, go away) and my husband and I have read and re-read and looked into things, and we have decided what we want, and may have a chance at ensuring it's done.

The input here is extremely useful. I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to PM me or respond and those who have just given their two cents, everything is appreciated greatly.

 
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