Churches of Christ Rules

When the bank loans you money, they know they have much better that 50% chance of getting that money back (or your land as collateral) so you are not taking advantage of them. Now if you provided an investment opportunity, filled people's heads with grand delusions and visions, and misrepresented the chance of sucess to them, that is stealing. We call it "fraud".

When you provide a job for an employee, you take nothing from them, you provide. Worse case, they find another job and you're the one who loses his shirt.

Now as far as the Wed. night poker game for chips, I don't see how it is any different than Monopoly. However, be on guard that it doesn't lead to something that could get out of control. You know yourself better than I do.

So yes, you do have to get up tomorrow and plant those crops. (In fact, to not do so would be dishonest.) As Christians, we are to deal honestly and fairly with everyone we come in contact with, earn our keep, and conduct ourselves in such a way that outsiders find us trustworthy and dependable. That's not following "religious rules". That's being Christ-like.

Splayd said:

The burden of proof lies with those trying to establish that they are. For whatever it's worth, I agree that they very often are, but not in their own right.

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The bible plainly shows that drunkeness and stealing is sinful.

splayd said:

Using scripture alone, noone need look for loopholes regarding gambling because there's simply nothing there about it. I'm in agreement that drunkeness is sinful. We just disagree that drinking in and of itself is sinful. In fact, we can demonstrate from scripture at least one instance that it isn't. It's only when our conslusions become rules that a loophole can exist at all.

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Gal 5 lists drunkeness, those that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. If drunkeness can keep one out of heaven it has to be a sin. Gal 5 does not say moderate drunkeness is acceptable.

slayd said:

Oh I believe gambling to be very dangerous for very many and I agree that a great many of us sin by gambling, but I don't see gambling as a sin in and of itself. When I play the pokies, I'm certainly sinning, for all of the reasons I listed before. There's a difference.

I'm sorry, but noone here's established that "Gambling itself is sinful". That opens us up to a whole world of interpretation issues, not least of which is to determine what constitutes "gambling". What we have acknoweldged is that by gambling we often sin. There's a difference.

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Gambling is stealing and stealing is sin. If one drinks or gambles his money away he is not being a good steward which is required of a Christian. The Golden rule would have you do unto others as you would have them do unto you. In gambling, you have to wish the other person misfortune so you can take his money away from him, is this what you wish others do unto you?

slayd said:

Do I seriously need to address this? The differences are stark and obvious.

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Yes. It seems to be the opinion of some that if the bible does not specifically condemn something ("thou shalt not gamble"), then it must mean it is acceptable to do.

Slayd said:

I didn't reach that conclusion. I was illustrating that one of the problems associated with establishing new rules is defining them. Where do we draw the line and who makes the distinction? Rather than focussing on the letter of our new made up laws and trying to define them, recognise how what you are doing harmonises with God's law.

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My point is that those who try to say gambling is not sinful, often go to absurb lenghts of saying anything is gambling. Example, I've heard them proclaim that waking up in the morning and going to work is a "gamble". Gambling involves the act of stealing, investing money and waking up and going to work does not involve stealing.

slayd said:

I always find the argument that "legalistic" isn't even biblical, a tad amusing as I only use it to illustrate when someone's trying to assert rules that aren't biblical. Incidently I never tried to ascertain that it was. Oh and by the way, the word "biblical" isn't even biblical. If we can only use biblical words perhaps we'd best start learning ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. For what it's worth - I do agree the term is bandied around too much and is often used to appease one's guilt. Perhaps you'll want to reexamine the one time I did use the word. I never directed it at anyone.

Now -as for the Pharisees: If you carefully investigate the charges against the Pharisees and study what was Torah and what was Pharisaical tradition, you'll find that all of the pharisaical stuff is actually derived from scripture in much the same way as your illustration earlier. It's fine to use those principals, up to the point that we determine new laws as being God's laws and more importantly determine that the whole point is in following the rules anyway.

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Where were the Pharisees ever called 'legalistic' for following the word of God? They were condemned for their hypocrisy and replacing God's word with their tradition, but they were never condemned for following God's word, and that's all I am trying to do here. I have not created anything 'new' nor replaced anything in God's word. Some here are simply trying to change God's word so it will fit their life-style instead of changing their life-style to fit God's word.

JDIBe said:

I don't think gambling itself is necessarily a sin. It's stupid, but not inherently a sin. The odds are always stacked against you. Casinos don't stay open giving money away to people. Kind of reminds me of that line in Nat. Lampoon's Vegas Vacation at the blackjack table....

You don't know when to quit, do ya Griswold?... Here's an idea: Why don't you give me half the money your were gonna to bet, then we'll go out back, I'll kick you (self-censored), and we'll call it a day!"

If one wants to flush their money down the toilet and watch it disappear hey, be my guest, but that being said, I know many people who have lost their houses to indian casinos in Oklahoma back home. It is a big problem, especially among the poor who see it as their only way out of poverty. It preys on the hopes and dreams of those who can least afford to lose.

I think it is a sin if you gamble away money that should go to the security of your family or to the Lord's work.
I also think it is a sin if you are taking advantage of someone weaker who either walks into your casino or someone you know is weaker than you in poker, for example. That is stealing. It's lying too. That, coupled with the fact that where there is gambling, there is usually other not-so-Christian activities going on too,(I have never seen a "family oriented" casino...) leads me to conclude there are probably more constructive things to do with one's time.

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People who gamble their money away are not being good stewards as Christians are ought to be. One that goes out and throws his money away on gambling instead of using that money to take care of his own is worse than an infidel, 1 Tim 5:8.

jmacvols said:

People who gamble their money away are not being good stewards as Christians are ought to be. One that goes out and throws his money away on gambling instead of using that money to take care of his own is worse than an infidel, 1 Tim 5:8.

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What about people who spend money that others would otherwise spend on various forms of entertainment on gambling? Those that manage their money well and know what they can lose and cannot lose? Or those who happen to win consistently rather than gamble away their money?

Well, I'm a "Johnny-Come-Lately" to this thread, but I'll share with you my opinions - keeping in mind that they are my opinions - and my reasons behind them.

Koey said:

I was recently given a verbal list of unwritten Churches of Christ rules by an elder in our church. Here are some of them:

1. Do not gamble. Gambling is, statistically, a waste of time and money. There's a reason that the Casinos and Lottery make so much money - and that is because people like you and me are LOSING that money. So, from that perspective, I see it as poor stewardship.
2. Do not put one coin in a slot machine, even just for fun. It sets a bad example, supports a sinful empire and could lead to ruin. All these reasons - which are true - would lead me to say, "You know... all things considered, I have a hard time seeing how any of this is really a GOOD idea." On the other hand, don't see any Scripture that says, "Pull a handle, go to hell."
3. Never go to the horse races, because they gamble there. Horse racing has about as much interest to me as NASCAR: None. On the other hand, I'm sure there are some people who go for the sport of it, and the beauty of the horses. The horses really are amazing animals!
4. Do not drink, even in moderation. There are lots and lots of people who consume alcohol very responsibly, and it is never a problem for them or any family members. On the other hand, no alcoholic ever began drinking, thinking, "Hey, I want to ruin my life with booze!" In addition, alcohol is involve in a VERY high percentage of cases of domestic violence, traffic fatalities and bad sexual choices. In other words, CHOOSE VERY WISELY.
5. A Christian ought never go into a pub or bar, it smells bad and people might think you are having a drink. What "people might think" is secondary in importance to why you are there. Is your being in the bar/pub for good and edifying reasons? If the answer is "Yes", good. If the answer is "No", you might want to think about why you're there.
6. Do not dance. Dancing is lust on two legs. Probably depends on what kind of dancing you're doing, and where. If you're dancing with your spouse, and it's enjoyable and/or leads to an evening of fun and intimacy - good! If you're a high school kid that's calling "grinding" and "lust thrusts" a form of dancing, you might want to re-think that. Lots of people have a wonderful, very enjoyable time while dancing. For others, it's nothing more than a prelude to immorality. CHOOSE VERY WISELY.

Do any of you follow these rules? Why? Do the words of Jesus have any priority in your lives, or do you make these rules equal in authority to the doctrines of Christ?

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I'll also say that none of these are "Church of Christ" rules. I think there are a lot of Christians, in a lot of churches, who take this relatively narrow view toward life. And while they're probably better off for having followed these "rules", the rules are not doctrine.



I've rambled on long enough...