Church Gov. question.

RadMan · Aug 25, 2010

DaRev said:
I'm just going by the original file and not by the opinions of someone who has a history of twisting the truth, distorting facts, and telling outright lies.

Boy you are sure big on calling your fellow Lutheran ministers liars when they aren't here to defend themselves.

PreachersWife2004 · Aug 25, 2010

RadMan said:
Boy you are sure big on calling your fellow Lutheran ministers liars when they aren't here to defend themselves.

Okay, really, with all the bad stuff you post about people, you're the last person who has any right to call out DaRev on this.

Studeclunker · Aug 25, 2010

RadMan said:
Boy you are sure big on calling your fellow Lutheran ministers liars when they aren't here to defend themselves.

PreachersWife2004 said:
Okay, really, with all the bad stuff you post about people, you're the last person who has any right to call out DaRev on this.

Sorry Becky, but with all due respect, if the shoe fits...

Like I said before, I know very little about Pastor Otten. Nonetheless, the rest of the LCMS pastors sat on thier hands whilst the Synod went straight to Hell in a handbasket.

The Seminex scandal was smoothed over and the heretical Pastors welcomed back into the fold. Now these same heretics have polluted LCMS from top to bottom and rooting them out is going to be ten times as hard. Added to that is the ruinous damage done to the hearts and minds of numerous congregations who have been spoon-fed these people's lies since the seventies. The congregation here in Redding is a perfect example of this.

So, sorry Revrand, but Otten is right, even if a bit over-the-top. A bit more sympathy from you, for a man who has been fighting the fight you and the rest of the LCMS' leadership should have been fighting, would be in order. What you need to do is pull off the blinders and get to work with the rest of the LCMS pastorate and clean your Synod up. You've waited too long as it is.

Then again, when the rot has been allowed to run unchecked so long it usually kills the tree... It's so very sad to see a denomination that had so much promise, be infiltrated by the enemy and brought down.

I don't think anything short of a purge will save the LCMS from the liberals in it's midst. Such a thing seems highly unlikely given the past track record of the Synod. I wish the new Synodical President all the strength and wisdom the Lord will impart. He has a very, very difficult road ahead of him and a very nasty fight if he takes it up. The Liberals will ensure that any victory over them is pyrrhic in the extreme.

filosofer · Aug 25, 2010

Studeclunker said:
Like I said before, I know very little about Pastor Otten. Nonetheless, the rest of the LCMS pastors sat on thier hands whilst the Synod went straight to Hell in a handbasket.

Rather broad brush, don't you think? As an LCMS pastor soon after the Seminex debacle, I certainly stood firm and worked to strengthen the congregations I served. But where was Otten to highlight that work and the thousands of other pastors who faithfully did the same? Nowhere to be seen, because it doesn't make good headlines, I guess.

Studeclunker said:
So, sorry Revrand, but Otten is right, even if a bit over-the-top. A bit more sympathy from you, for a man who has been fighting the fight you and the rest of the LCMS' leadership should have been fighting, would be in order. What you need to do is pull off the blinders and get to work with the rest of the LCMS pastorate and clean your Synod up. You've waited too long as it is.

Well, let's examine your statement a little more carefully. DaRev wasn't even a Lutheran during that time, and has only been a pastor in the LCMS for a few years. So, don't be laying this at his feet. And you have no idea what and how he has operated as he has been working to strengthen the LCMS.

Studeclunker said:
I don't think anything short of a purge will save the LCMS from the liberals in it's midst. Such a thing seems highly unlikely given the past track record of the Synod. I wish the new Synodical President all the strength and wisdom the Lord will impart. He has a very, very difficult road ahead of him and a very nasty fight if he takes it up. The Liberals will ensure that any victory over them is pyrrhic in the extreme.

I have seen how purges work at the congregation level and at the national/regional level. It is not pretty, and it isn't all about "winning." Your concern for congregations that have been spoon-fed some of the liberal stuff is fine; but your concern should increase greatly when a purge is pursued. The devastation in congregations will be extensive. There is ministry that has to match the purity of doctrine.

DaRev · Aug 25, 2010

Studeclunker said:
Sorry Becky, but with all due respect, if the shoe fits...

Like I said before, I know very little about Pastor Otten. Nonetheless, the rest of the LCMS pastors sat on thier hands whilst the Synod went straight to Hell in a handbasket.

The Seminex scandal was smoothed over and the heretical Pastors welcomed back into the fold. Now these same heretics have polluted LCMS from top to bottom and rooting them out is going to be ten times as hard. Added to that is the ruinous damage done to the hearts and minds of numerous congregations who have been spoon-fed these people's lies since the seventies. The congregation here in Redding is a perfect example of this.

So, sorry Revrand, but Otten is right, even if a bit over-the-top. A bit more sympathy from you, for a man who has been fighting the fight you and the rest of the LCMS' leadership should have been fighting, would be in order. What you need to do is pull off the blinders and get to work with the rest of the LCMS pastorate and clean your Synod up. You've waited too long as it is.

Then again, when the rot has been allowed to run unchecked so long it usually kills the tree... It's so very sad to see a denomination that had so much promise, be infiltrated by the enemy and brought down.

I don't think anything short of a purge will save the LCMS from the liberals in it's midst. Such a thing seems highly unlikely given the past track record of the Synod. I wish the new Synodical President all the strength and wisdom the Lord will impart. He has a very, very difficult road ahead of him and a very nasty fight if he takes it up. The Liberals will ensure that any victory over them is pyrrhic in the extreme.

Here's a good example of people spouting off about things they know nothing about. Stude, you don't know me at all, you don't know what I'm doing at the district or synod level. You don't know what things I have and have not supported. I don't discuss my entire life and work on this forum. I think before you pop off any more, maybe you should do some homework, like your buddy Otten doesn't do.

<staff edit> Part of the problem is from people who are outside the synod, like Otten, Cascione, you, and Rad, who instead of trying to corrent the problems from within, you leave and stand outside throwing rocks, and then cry foul if someone dares to question your words or motives. <staff edit>

You all belly-ached and moaned all the while Keischnick was in office. We worked quite hard to change that. One would think that those who are outside throwing rocks would be happy about that. The work is just starting and it will take time. But no, all you all want to do is throw more rocks.

If you're not happy with the LCMS, there are plenty of other churches to choose from. Let those of us who love the synod continue to do the work of the synod <staff edit>.

Studeclunker · Aug 25, 2010

I stand corrected as to your tenure in the LCMS, Revrand. However, broadbrush or not, the Synod has gone to hell in a handbasket. It would have been better to have nipped this in the bud, but that wasn't done. Perhaps the Lord moved you over to LCMS because he saw in you a fighter for his cause! So, with all due respect, get back to work!

Sorry about being a 'Cry Baby' but that kind of impotent whining is all I can do when double-crossed by Holier-than-thou liberal (and a few conservatives) leadership of one's denomination. Little laity people like myself are largely unable to do anything more than the above and walk. I've done both. However, don't throw your own rocks, Revrand and Filo, without remembering that YOU and the rest of the pastorate will be held responsible for this debacle. It's the shepherds that are held responsible for the wandering of the flock. Thirty-five years in dealing with this is a shameful tenure for any leadership. Gosh, do you realize that's a whole generation of Pastors, let alone the laity? At the same time, I'm sure the Lord will be pleased with those who stood as Jeremiah did against the false prophets when Israel went to the dogs as the Church (all denominations) does the same. If your role is to be that of Jeremiah, than continue to stand firm. Someone has to.

Filo, yes... to what extent did you and many other Pastors work? I'm not happy about being forced out of the LCMS. No, I won't shut up about it either. As to the current Synodical President, we will have to wait and see what he does. If he follows the 'Conservative' president's (of the past) example, nothing will be done. Or very little at any rate. I hope and pray this is not the case and will very happily eat humble pie if this fellow corrects the problem.

Purges are not pretty. They are always a disaster for both sides. The problem is that the Synod has allowed this situation to arise. Now they have to deal with it. The whole thing started long before Seminex, and even before the thirties when LCMS foolishly entered into close fellowship with the ALC.

<staff edit>Part of the problem is from people who are outside the synod, like Otten, Cascione, you, and Rad, who instead of trying to corrent the problems from within, you leave and stand outside throwing rocks, and then cry foul if someone dares to question your words or motives. <staff edit>

I never said that I hate the LMCS. Quite the contrary! I have a great affection for the Synod. Problem is, there's nothing I could do from within. What is a Layman to do who has no personal resources, Revrand? Explain that to me please. I have tried to write letters and get back insipid form letters. Would you like to pay for my transportation? Would you like to provide a way for me to work on this? If you would, I'd take you up on it! Even though I have joined the WELS I'd be willing to FIGHT to take the LCMS back from the liberals! EXPLAIN TO ME HOW I'M TO DO THAT PLEASE!! I'm poor, Revrand. I have no resources to travel or even telephone people. Leaving the Synod was something I did to escape what I saw as dangerous to my salvation. What else could I do? I stand outside throwing rocks because there's nothing else I can do. It breaks my heart to see what has happened and my own helplessness makes me furious!

I haven't forgotten what you did at the convention, Revrand, and am grateful for what you HAVE done. Both you and Filo. The problem is, it hasn't been sufficient. Neither I, nor anyone else here, expects the two of you to correct the errors of the LCMS just amongst the two of you. It's a crying shame though, that the passengers on the steamship LCMS are being loaded into lifeboats because no one would deal with a minor leak before it became a flood. Do let's hope that this great ship of faith is not sunk by a wave of impotence and faithlessness.

DaRev · Aug 25, 2010

Studeclunker said:
However, don't throw your own rocks, Revrand and Filo, without remembering that YOU and the rest of the pastorate will be held responsible for this debacle. It's the shepherds that are held responsible for the wandering of the flock.

You seem to forget that the LCMS is a congregational church body. There is just as much, if not more, responsibility on the laity.

Problem is, there's nothing I could do from within. What is a Layman to do who has no personal resources, Revrand? Explain that to me please.

You want to know what you can do? Stop fighting us who are trying! Instead of bashing and putting down everyone who doesn't agree with your personal issues, try encouraging us and praying for us. And if you can't do that, then stay in the WELS and leave the LCMS to those of us who really want to fix the problems.

Studeclunker · Aug 25, 2010

DaRev said:
You seem to forget that the LCMS is a congregational church body. There is just as much, if not more, responsibility on the laity.

Perhaps... however, the laity is not allowed at the conventions. The laity aren't allowed to vote for the Synodical President, District Presidents, etc... Therefore, I wouldn't rest in that, Revrand.

You want to know what you can do? Stop fighting us who are trying! Instead of bashing and putting down everyone who doesn't agree with your personal issues, try encouraging us and praying for us. And if you can't do that, then stay in the WELS and leave the LCMS to those of us who really want to fix the problems.

You know... this whole argument came up because I expressed the belief that perhaps Pastor Otten (and since you brought him up Casigone too) have a point. No, I'm not too very fond of thier style, and have expressed it in other threads. Their retoric is harmful to their own agenda. With all that understood, they have a valid point. When one's back is forced against a wall and they have to fight for survival, it's hard to know when to stop fighting. As to these two gentlemen, their fight goes on. Therefore don't expect them to stop throwing bricks and rocks till the Synod makes some serious progress.

I have not been fighting you on the issues that trouble the LCMS, Revrand. You and I are in accord there. Perhaps closer than you might even think.

At the same time, I'm sure the Lord will be pleased with those who stood as Jeremiah did against the false prophets when Israel went to the dogs as the Church (all denominations) does the same. If your role is to be that of Jeremiah, than continue to stand firm. Someone has to.

I respect you and Filo a great deal for what you claim to be doing (after all you yourself pointed out that I don't really know what you are doing exactly). That was an excellent move at the convention, and there are thousands of people, including myself, that are grateful for that sensible modification.

Your position is apparently to work from within. Please be careful of those who have been marginalized (whatever their faults) for doing so long ago. Remember, Pastor Otten started his fight right there in the Seminary. If he's gotten into a bit of a rut, cut him some slack. After all, he's been at this fight for over thirty years. That takes a toll on a man.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is; judge less, understand more. I really think Otten and Casigone are on your side, believe it or not. They may be angry, combative, and just plain irracible. Then again, I can think of someone else that has just a touch of those qualities as well.

PreachersWife2004 · Aug 25, 2010

Move along, nothing to see here.

DaRev · Aug 25, 2010

Studeclunker said:
Perhaps... however, the laity is not allowed at the conventions. The laity aren't allowed to vote for the Synodical President, District Presidents, etc... Therefore, I wouldn't rest in that, Revrand.

Well that's awful funny because I was at both our district convention and the synod convention and half of the delegates are laity who voted for the district president and synodical president.

Again, another example of someone spouting off about something they know nothing about.

Studeclunker · Aug 26, 2010

DaRev said:
Well that's awful funny because I was at both our district convention and the synod convention and half of the delegates are laity who voted for the district president and synodical president.

Again, another example of someone spouting off about something they know nothing about.

First of all, you take many of my comments far too personally. As if I'm attacking you alone. Wrong on that count. Secondly, you have taken what I said about Laity and the Synodical Conferrence completely wrong as well.

Know nothing about? Talk about spouting about. Yes, I do happen to know a bit (very little bit) about how the voting and delegation system works at the Conferrence. I have been on the church council several times. In the fifteen years I was with the LCMS I never saw a ballot for Synodical President or any of the other Synodical officers. This was taken care of at the Convention. I'm sure if I just showed up there without an invite, they'd be polite and send me right out the door. So, a select few (called delegates) get to vote on these issues, participate in the Convention, and thats all. For the most part, that's quite all right with me. I was very satisfied in my previous congregations to listen to the (voted upon) delegate and read his report. Frankly, I avoided the position as I was a single parent and had very little time for my son as it was. However, the direction that the Synod has taken is where I take exception. Once again, the general Laity aren't participants in this process. Weather that's good or bad I'm not sure. I can tell you this though, had I the money for the plane ticket, you would have seen me out front picketing. If that's all I can do, than so be it.

You must keep in mind where I came from Revrand. I watched my own denomination, absorbed against our (the Laity's) will into E*CA, go to hell in short order. I made the jump to LCMS only to see them start down the exact same path (the church growth movement). The Laity who attend the Conferrence are sent by the Congregations they represent. How much of a chance do you see of a radically liberal Congregation sending a very conservative delegate? Once again, this congregation in my area is the only one for a hundred miles in any direction. It's bad enough going forty-five miles to Church let alone a hundred. So, no... this old stick in the mud is unable to do anything about what's happening in your synod except gripe impotently and leave. Not my choice, and a bitter one to boot.

Now, about knowing nothing about you. I know you're divorced. You've got several children, I forget is it three? You lived in a rather unsatisfactory parsonage in the last congregation that had serious mould issues. Some of the parisioners gave you trouble with congregational tradition. You attended the St. Louis Seminary and so on... After conversing with you in this forum for three years or so we tend to get to know one another a bit. Only a bit, to be sure. Still, that doesn't qualify for knowing nothing. Actually, I just might know more about you than I do my current Pastor, LOL!

Sojourner1 · Aug 26, 2010

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Church Gov. question.

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