Christians say. Arian, Holy Trinity is it true or false

jnois · Sep 3, 2009

Christians say. Arian, Holy Trinity is it true or false
First A question about historical Jesus

Regarding the Trinity and time. It has been asked how can the son be begotten and not come after? These people say that if Jesus was begotten he had to came after which would then imply that he could not have always existed. there must have been a moment in which the father existed alone without Jesus present

ANSWER to above

Jesus had two birthdays in one day. 1. Son of man 2. and son of God

As promised by the most high living God of Abraham to Abraham. In thy seed the nations of the world will be blessed.

1. Jesus son of Mary, son of David, son of man This is the earth child from human genes. And he was begotten by the Father. And first son of God. [ not only son of God. ] We follow after by practicing and doing the laws of Gods spirit.

1. Of course Jesus son of man never existed before this, he is Jesus, son of David, son of Mary and son of man,
and begotten by God through the Holy Spirit. Earth birthday as written in Mathew and Luke.

JESUS' SPIRIT BIRTHDAY.. IN THIS WE GIVE SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND DEEDS, DOING THE LAWS OF GODS' KINGDOM ON EARTH.

2. Jesus son of God. And the word was made flesh .. Jesus not son of Joseph or Mary. Jesus other birthday, in the spirit world he is the word of God. And has always been with God. And is the word of the most high living God of Abraham
As written in chapter one of John. [ Johns book is to the spirit laws of God, truth, righteousness. Love. ]

And know in heaven Jesus sits on the right hand of God, Jesus son of Mary, son of David and is our high priest.

So now for the first time in history. The main powers in the heavens The Father, the word the Holy Spirit and son of man and these three are one. For the son of man is and was in historical Jesus the word made flesh.

JESUS ON EARTH WAS TWO ENTITIES, SPIRIT AND HUMAN.

THE SPIRIT TALKING

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

also

John 8: 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Re: The Trinity

NOW THE TRINITY EXLAINED AS TO MY REVELATIONS .

I will explain it earthly .. then .. the Holy Trinity.. The creation of the universe, heaven and earth.

TRINITY EXPLAINED EARTHY

Let's say: I had a bible study group at my apartment, and it was getting dusk so I said, " I am going to turn on the lights, and I turned the lights on.

I also have an earthly trinity.

I said, " I am going to turn on the lights " and I turned the lights on.

explanation of my trinity.. I = John my entity, being and my name.. said = the mind of John

" I am going to turn on the lights " now you hear me say that, but what you hear is a voice modulation going through the air to your ears so you can hear.

Is that voice modulation me? yes and no .. no because it is a separate entity or force.
and yet that modulation, or force you heard was formulated by my mind, so then yes it is me. in a different form.

and this voice modulation is subordinate to my mind.. I may have said it in a different way or said nothing at all and just turned on the lights.. it is all up to my mind.

And I turned on the lights .. This is my working force and is subordinate to my mind ..
I might change my mind and turn them on later or not at all and we all can read in the dark.

The mind of John the word and working force are one

So the voice modulation and the working force are up to my mind and both are subordinate to my mind. So ...The mind of John the word and working force are one

............. THE HOLY TRINITY AND THE CREATION ............................

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God = The most high living God of Abraham.. said = the mind of God

" Let there be light" This voice modulation you would hear is Jesus .. Jesus is the word of God..... [ Jesus never existed at this time, I use this as to historical Jesus.. ]

...... So the word and Jesus are subordinate to the mind of God and are one

Jesus in the spirit world is the word of God and was with God from the beginning.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in HEAVEN, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

.... And there was light .. This also is a different entity then God and is the Holy Spirit and this is the working force of God.

The holy Spirit, the working force of God is also subject to the will of God. God may change His mind. and create trees, animals etc..

So the word of God and the Holy Spirit are all subordinate to the mind and will of the most high living God of Abraham ... AND ALL THREE ARE ONE.

The Holy Trinity are three separate entities, The Father the word and the holy spirit. However, the word and the holy spirit are subordinate and in subjection to the mind and will of the most high living God of Abraham, the Father and these three are one.

In God and Jesus

John

freeport · Sep 25, 2009

jnois said:
Christians say. Arian, Holy Trinity is it true or false
First A question about historical Jesus

Regarding the Trinity and time. It has been asked how can the son be begotten and not come after? These people say that if Jesus was begotten he had to came after which would then imply that he could not have always existed. there must have been a moment in which the father existed alone without Jesus present

In the Beginning, the word was God.

The only thing "created" about Jesus is his interaction with creation: for instance, being a carpenter. Or being hung on the cross. Crosses did not always exist, nor homes, nor carpentry. But, Jesus has always existed.

Very simple.

Simonline · Oct 12, 2009

jnois said:
Christians say. Arian, Holy Trinity is it true or false
First A question about historical Jesus

Regarding the Trinity and time. It has been asked how can the son be begotten and not come after? These people say that if Jesus was begotten he had to came after which would then imply that he could not have always existed. there must have been a moment in which the father existed alone without Jesus present

ANSWER to above

Jesus had two birthdays in one day. 1. Son of man 2. and son of God

As promised by the most high living God of Abraham to Abraham. In thy seed the nations of the world will be blessed.

1. Jesus son of Mary, son of David, son of man This is the earth child from human genes. And he was begotten by the Father. And first son of God. [ not only son of God. ] We follow after by practicing and doing the laws of Gods spirit.

1. Of course Jesus son of man never existed before this, he is Jesus, son of David, son of Mary and son of man,
and begotten by God through the Holy Spirit. Earth birthday as written in Mathew and Luke.

JESUS' SPIRIT BIRTHDAY.. IN THIS WE GIVE SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND DEEDS, DOING THE LAWS OF GODS' KINGDOM ON EARTH.

2. Jesus son of God. And the word was made flesh .. Jesus not son of Joseph or Mary. Jesus other birthday, in the spirit world he is the word of God. And has always been with God. And is the word of the most high living God of Abraham
As written in chapter one of John. [ Johns book is to the spirit laws of God, truth, righteousness. Love. ]

And know in heaven Jesus sits on the right hand of God, Jesus son of Mary, son of David and is our high priest.

So now for the first time in history. The main powers in the heavens The Father, the word the Holy Spirit and son of man and these three are one. For the son of man is and was in historical Jesus the word made flesh.

JESUS ON EARTH WAS TWO ENTITIES, SPIRIT AND HUMAN.

THE SPIRIT TALKING

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

also

John 8: 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

OK. Let's start at the begining.

The apostle John declares that "In the Begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" (Jn.1:1). This means that the Word is both with God and is God. This means that the Word, like the rest of God, is both Eternal and Immutable. If the Word is both Eternal and Immutable then by definition the Word neither precedes nor succeeds anything or anyone.

It is for this reason that the Church declares that the Son/Word as Divine (not human) is ETERNALLY (not temporally) begotten of the Father.

In other words, the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH Exists because the First Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH Exists and that there was not, nor is not, nor ever will be a point when the First Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH Exists without the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH. The Second Person Exists because the First Person Exists and the First Person CANNOT Exist without the Second Person. It's as simple as that (Jn.4:24).

This is entirely separate from the existence of the Word/Son as a human creature (Jn.1:14; Heb.2:17; 1Jn.4:1-3)

At a specific point in history the Word/Son has incarnated as a human creature (1Jn.4:1-3). The One Who has incarnated is God (Jn.1:1), the way in which He has incarnated is as a human creature (Jn.1:14; Heb.2:17) as distinct from any other finite creature (Heb.2:14-17). The Word/Son DID NOT incarnate as God (since He is Eternally God) therefore the human incarnation is NOT Divine but IS the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (Matt.1:23).

The terms 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man' relate NOT to the Son Existing as the Divine Creator YHWH but to the Son existing as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth (i.e. the human incarnation of God).

jnois said:
Re: The Trinity

NOW THE TRINITY EXLAINED AS TO MY REVELATIONS .

I will explain it earthly .. then .. the Holy Trinity.. The creation of the universe, heaven and earth.

TRINITY EXPLAINED EARTHY

Let's say: I had a bible study group at my apartment, and it was getting dusk so I said, " I am going to turn on the lights, and I turned the lights on.

I also have an earthly trinity.

I said, " I am going to turn on the lights " and I turned the lights on.

explanation of my trinity.. I = John my entity, being and my name.. said = the mind of John

" I am going to turn on the lights " now you hear me say that, but what you hear is a voice modulation going through the air to your ears so you can hear.

Is that voice modulation me? yes and no .. no because it is a separate entity or force.
and yet that modulation, or force you heard was formulated by my mind, so then yes it is me. in a different form.

and this voice modulation is subordinate to my mind.. I may have said it in a different way or said nothing at all and just turned on the lights.. it is all up to my mind.

And I turned on the lights .. This is my working force and is subordinate to my mind ..
I might change my mind and turn them on later or not at all and we all can read in the dark.

The mind of John the word and working force are one

So the voice modulation and the working force are up to my mind and both are subordinate to my mind. So ...The mind of John the word and working force are one.

That may be your understanding of the Trinity but it is far from the Divine Revelation of the Trinity as revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

The Scriptures reveal God to Exist as Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal. The Scriptures declare that the Father, the Son/Word and the Holy Spirit are Each Persons in their own right and not simply different aspects of a single Divine Person (as you have suggested). The Scriptures declare that God is One (Deut.6:4; Isa.43:10-13) but they do NOT declare that God is Mono-Personal. Contrary to the Divine Revelation Man has read that into the text Himself. Instead the Scriptures reveal that God Exists as One Single Entity Who simultaneously Exists as Tri-Personal - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

jnois said:
............. THE HOLY TRINITY AND THE CREATION ............................

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God = The most high living God of Abraham.. said = the mind of God

" Let there be light" This voice modulation you would hear is Jesus .. Jesus is the word of God..... [ Jesus never existed at this time, I use this as to historical Jesus.. ]

...... So the word and Jesus are subordinate to the mind of God and are one

Again, not correct. Only as an incarnate human creature is the Son subordinate to the Father as the Divine Creator (Jn.14:28). As the Divine Creator Himself the Son CANNOT be subordinate to either the Father or the Holy Spirit since they are all Three one and the same Tri-Personal Divine Creator. As the Divine Creator all Three Persons are absolutely equal (but NOT identical) in every way.

jnois said:
Jesus in the spirit world is the word of God and was with God from the beginning.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This is a metaphysical contradiction and an ontological absurdity.

The Son/Word as discarnate (Jn.1:1; 4:24) is both with God (i.e. the Father and the Holy Spirit) and is God for all Eternity. As incarnate the Son/Word exists within both Time and Space as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth (Jn.14:28).

The human creature, Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the Creation into existence ex nihilo (from nothing) and the Divine Creator, YHWH did NOT die upon the cross but the Son/Word did both of those things.

continued...

Simonline · Oct 12, 2009

jnois said:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in HEAVEN, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Apparently this text was a later interpolation to the Scriptures but that is not a problem because the truth can already be established on the basis of the rest of Scripture that isn't a later interpolation.

jnois said:
'But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands' (Heb.1:8)

This is a reference to the pre-incarnate Son/Word Existing as the Divine Creator rather than as a human creature. This is a reference to the Messiah Existing as YHWH rather than as Jesus of Nazareth.

jnois said:
.... And there was light .. This also is a different entity then God and is the Holy Spirit and this is the working force of God.

The holy Spirit, the working force of God is also subject to the will of God.

Again, that isn't in accordance with the Divine Revelation that is Scripture:

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son John 16:13
15. Alive John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

jnois said:
God may change His mind. and create trees, animals etc..

So the word of God and the Holy Spirit are all subordinate to the mind and will of the most high living God of Abraham ... AND ALL THREE ARE ONE.

No. The Scriptures do NOT reveal God as Mono-Personal. This has been eisegetically read into the Scriptures and the Scriptures are being manipulated to make them appear to reveal that God is Mono-Personal but that is NOT the case.

jnois said:
The Holy Trinity are three separate entities, The Father the word and the holy spirit.

Again, that is a metaphysical contradiction and an ontological absurdity. The Holy Trinity is NOT a triumvirate or a 'committee of three separate (and therefore finite) gods [i.e. Tri-theism]' Instead the Divine Creator is a single Entity (Deut.6:4; Isa.43:10-13) simultaneously Existing as Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal.

jnois said:
However, the word and the holy spirit are subordinate and in subjection to the mind and will of the most high living God of Abraham, the Father and these three are one.

Not true. There is no subordination within the One Tri-Personal God and absolutely no 'subjection' (no-one is forced to do anything against their will since this would be a violation of the very essence of Love (1Jn.4:8,16))?!

Simonline.

Simonline · Oct 12, 2009

freeport said:
In the Beginning, the word was God.

The only thing "created" about Jesus is his interaction with creation: for instance, being a carpenter. Or being hung on the cross. Crosses did not always exist, nor homes, nor carpentry. But, Jesus has always existed.

Very simple.

Very false (not to mention ontologically absurd).

The human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is neither Eternal nor Immutable. However, the Son, as the Divine Creator, is both Eternal and Immutable.

The One Who has incarnated is the Divine Creator NOT the human creature and the way in which He has incarnated is as the human creature NOT the Divine Creator. YHWH is NOT human and Jesus of Nazareth is NOT Divine but the Messiah is Emmanuel (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3).

Simonline.

heymikey80 · Nov 1, 2009

Simonline said:
This is entirely separate from the existence of the Word/Son as a human creature (Jn.1:14; Heb.2:17; 1Jn.4:1-3)

This is an assertion, yet Scripture lines them up just fine.

John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" John 1:15

John doesn't see Jesus as being entirely separate from the existence of the Word as God. And neither does Jesus.

8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. John 14:8-10

And of course Thomas' confession.

27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:27-28

Simonline said:
At a specific point in history the Word/Son has incarnated as a human creature (1Jn.4:1-3). The One Who has incarnated is God (Jn.1:1), the way in which He has incarnated is as a human creature (Jn.1:14; Heb.2:17) as distinct from any other finite creature (Heb.2:14-17). The Word/Son DID NOT incarnate as God (since He is Eternally God) therefore the human incarnation is NOT Divine but IS the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (Matt.1:23).

The incarnation of God is God. God put on flesh and tabernacled among us.

Simonline said:
The terms 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man' relate NOT to the Son Existing as the Divine Creator YHWH but to the Son existing as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth (i.e. the human incarnation of God).

13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:13-20

Christians say. Arian, Holy Trinity is it true or false

jnois

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heymikey80

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Christians say. Arian, Holy Trinity is it true or false

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