Christians Misunderstanding that Jesus Declared All Food 'Clean'

Islam_mulia · Mar 18, 2006

I came across some christians who claimed that Pork and other food that are considered unclean in the OT are considered 'clean' by Jesus.

Elijah115, for example, quoted

MK 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him `unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

MK 7:20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean.' "
http://www.christianforums.com/t2784998-end-of-story.html&page=5

My question is: Did Jesus declared all foods clean and hence went against the Jewish law and his own words, where he said

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

Your comments, please.

Yair · Mar 18, 2006

What I think is more sailent here, is comparing Jesus here, declaring all foods clean with Devarim 13,

Devarim 13 said:
1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

Islam_mulia · Mar 18, 2006

Yair said:
What I think is more sailent here, is comparing Jesus here, declaring all foods clean with Devarim 13,

It is possible, though, that Jesus DID NOT say all foods are 'clean' but the gospel writer and the christians themselves MISUNDERSTOOD his sayings.

Skillganon · Mar 18, 2006

Mark 7:
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed.

First point is that Jesus was not talking about unclean food but food being eaten with unclean hand, that stain's the food.

Now assuming Jesus was a Jew and his disciples followed all the prohibitory custom than the disciple was not eating any prohibitory food (i.e swine).

"So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

Now eating with unclean hand at that time could be for any number of reason, mainly they did not have the luaxary of clean water.

.....their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Next, Jesus point's out "eating food with clean hand" is only rule taught by men (although a hygenic one), not a command of god (understandble since water is a luxary), but is a tradition of men.
He is admonishing the jew's at those time of holding on tradition and not the command of GOD. Hyprocites.

Next

14"Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'".

Now here is Jesus making a reference to the point of eating with dirty hand!, or dirt on the food (what we might call micro-organism that we eat countlessly with our food,) does not make one unclean (note not talking about prohibitive food i.e. swine).
He say's rather what come's out, this could mean you'r stool, or rather what comes out, like ones intention, action e.t.c.
He uses the food parable to admonish and demonstrate to not only his disciple to teach them, but point out to the "Pharisees and teachers of the law" of their hyprocrisy. This is supported here:

" 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

Now Jesus never said do not eat swine, he was refering to eating with unwashed hand, because those specific Jew's thought eating food with unwashed hand was unclean.
It is not the food being eaten was the unclean (forbidden), bcos if that was true the Jew's would of said you are eating swine to the Disciple.
Jesus used their own hyprocrisy to stress a point to those Jew's.

Thanks. Hope that makes sense.

peaceful soul · Mar 18, 2006

Edit.................

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 19, 2006

Now Jesus never said do not eat swine, he was refering to eating with unwashed hand, because those specific Jew's thought eating food with unwashed hand was unclean.
It is not the food being eaten was the unclean (forbidden), bcos if that was true the Jew's would of said you are eating swine to the Disciple.
Jesus used their own hyprocrisy to stress a point to those Jew's.

Thanks. Hope that makes sense.

That makes sense.I believe an important point is, that all of that was under OC Law of Moses given to the original 12 Hebrew tribes of Israel.[I am a "gentile" apart from that Law btw] and this was a jewish audience Jesus was talking ot.

If I become circumcized to come under the Law of Moses, then I will have to follow ALL of the Levitical and other ordinances given to the Jews/Hebrews born of Jacob/Israel only.

Btw, Paul in Romans 14 clarifies things for those that believe Paul was a True Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do love my bacon, lettuce and tomatoe sandwiches.

Romans 14:11 For it is written: ["As] I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in [our] brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that [there is] nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of [your] food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but Fighteousness and Peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit.

Yair · Mar 19, 2006

skillganon said:
First point is that Jesus was not talking about unclean food but food being eaten with unclean hand, that stain's the food.

To be honest, it's a seprate discourse. 7:1-7:13 is talking about the false "Traditions of Men"

verse 14, picks up with a complete different topic;

ESV said:
14 And he called the people to him again and said to them, Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him. [5] 17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? [6] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

He states that anything outside of a man cannot defile him becuase it goes to the stomache and not the heart. Thats the conditioning factor where he declared "all foods clean".

Yair · Mar 19, 2006

Here is a summary from Matthew Henry, on this specific Chapter, bold text is mine;

Matthew Henry said:
One great design of Christs coming, was, to set aside the ceremonial law which God made, and to put an end to it; to make way for which he begins with the ceremonial law which men had made, and added to the law of Gods making, and discharges his disciples from the obligation of that; which here he doth fully, upon occasion of the offence which the Pharisees took at them for the violation of it. These Pharisees and scribes with whom he had this argument, are said to come from Jerusalem down to Galileefourscore or a hundred miles, to pick quarrels with our Saviour there, where they supposed him to have the greatest interest and reputation. Had they come so far to be taught by him, their zeal had been commendable; but to come so far to oppose him, and to check the progress of his gospel, was great wickedness. It should seem that the scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem pretended not only to a pre-eminence above, but to an authority over, the country clergy, and therefore kept up their visitations and sent inquisitors among them, as they did to John when he appeared, Jn. 1:19.

Now I am not exactly sure why he has Rabbis traveling over a hundread miles, just to argue with Jesus in a field, but I didn't write the gospels. However, we can see from above, that Jesus said he had come to replace not only the laws of the Pharisee, but also laws from God.

Fares · Mar 19, 2006

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/unclean-foods-jesus.htm

Check this link it gives you the answer .
Unless you choose to ignore it as always .

Have a good day .

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 19, 2006

Fares said:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/unclean-foods-jesus.htm

Check this link it gives you the answer .
Unless you choose to ignore it as always .

Have a good day .

Hi Fares. Why not give us your view as I also am curious to how others personally view the Scriptures and I am also here to learn. Mine is in post # 6. I use Paul to help clarify Jesus's teachings. Thanks.

Yair · Mar 19, 2006

Question for you Fares, about that article.

The author makes mention of Daniel refusing to drink the king's wine. Do you know of the specific passage in the Torah that makes the distinction, what makes a wine unclean and not suitable for consumption?

Fares · Mar 19, 2006

My opinion is :

My body is a temple ,
anything that does not hurt it , I eat it .
Science prouved that pork is not harmfull .
Therefore its ok to eat it .

Fares · Mar 19, 2006

Question for you Fares, about that article.

The author makes mention of Daniel refusing to drink the king's wine. Do you know of the specific passage in the Torah that makes the distinction, what makes a wine unclean and not suitable for consumption?

I bet its something concerning the Kashrot .

Yair · Mar 19, 2006

Fares said:
I bet its something concerning the Kashrot .

Suprisingly enough, it isn't in there. It is, however, mentioned in the Oral Torah ( part of the Talmud ) about what makes wine unclean. I just found it kind of humerous, that the author goes to some lengths to show at length the "hypocricy" of the Pharisee, when Daniel was observing one of their "man made" laws and was rewarded for it.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 19, 2006

If I become circumcized to come under the Law of Moses, then I will have to follow ALL of the Levitical and other ordinances given to the Jews/Hebrews born of Jacob/Israel only.

Btw, Paul in Romans 14 clarifies things for those that believe Paul was a True Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do love my bacon, lettuce and tomatoe sandwiches.

Romans 14:11 For it is written: ["As] I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in [our] brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that [there is] nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of [your] food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but Fighteousness and Peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/unclean-foods-jesus.htm

Check this link it gives you the answer .
Unless you choose to ignore it as always .

Have a good day

.

Hi Fares. Why not give us your view as I also am curious to how others personally view the Scriptures and I am also here to learn. Mine is in post # 6. I use Paul to help clarify Jesus's teachings. Thanks.

Fares said:
My opinion is :

My body is a temple ,
anything that does not hurt it , I eat it .
Science prouved that pork is not harmfull .
Therefore its ok to eat it .

I will respect others though on what they do or not eat. My daughter is [or was] a vegetarian for many years so I had to eat vegetarian meals when we visited her. Didn't mind a bit.

mallowpuff · Mar 19, 2006

Fares said:
My opinion is :

My body is a temple ,
anything that does not hurt it , I eat it .
Science prouved that pork is not harmfull .
Therefore its ok to eat it .

Pork is harmful, it can cause disease. But now with modern procesing, it is less likely to. Same with not eating the cream on the milk. Maybe God was letting us know before hand what could give us heart disease

MercuryAndy · Mar 19, 2006

he said eat animals with divided hoofs expet pigs.

Islam_mulia · Mar 19, 2006

Fares said:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/unclean-foods-jesus.htm

Check this link it gives you the answer .
Unless you choose to ignore it as always .

Have a good day .

For once, I think what you provided make sense.

The CONTEXT of the discourse was not that Jesus declared all foods (including Pork) 'clean', Rather, the CONTEXT was on 'not washing their hands'.

Your link states:
Question: Did Jesus conclude that the biblically unclean foods were now clean?

My Answer: No, He concluded that a man is not defiled by unwashed hands. Repeal of the biblically unclean foods prohibitions was simply not under discussion in the context of the passage. If that were what the scribes and Pharisees had understood Him to say, they would have gone berserk in their condemnation of Jesus, and would have charged him with heresy in abandoning or contradicting the dietary restrictions of God, but this they never did, because Jesus never did say or imply any such thing.

You would find that even the writer of the Gospel misunderstood what Jesus said and claimed in paraphasis (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.").

Thanks Fares. Good day.

Fares · Mar 19, 2006

You would find that even the writer of the Gospel misunderstood what Jesus said and claimed in paraphasis (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.").

Writer of the Gospel ? Do you mean the 4 saints inspired by the Holy Spirit misundertood ?
I dont think so . Do not contradict those guided by God .
Its unhealthy .

cavymom · Mar 19, 2006

Islam_mulia said:
I came across some christians who claimed that Pork and other food that are considered unclean in the OT are considered 'clean' by Jesus.

Elijah115, for example, quoted

MK 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him `unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

MK 7:20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean.' "
http://www.christianforums.com/t2784998-end-of-story.html&page=5

My question is: Did Jesus declared all foods clean and hence went against the Jewish law and his own words, where he said

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

Your comments, please.

Jesus was telling them that the food you eat is eliminated from your body (into your stomach) BUT sin corrupts you/ defiles you (out of your heart)

Mark 7:14 Summoning the crowd again, He told them, "Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15 Nothing that goes into a man from outside can defile him, but the things that come out of a man are what defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, he should listen!" 17 When He went into the house away from the crowd, the disciples asked Him about the parable. 18 And He said to them, "Are you also as lacking in understanding? Don't you realize that nothing going into a man from the outside can defile him? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into the stomach, and is eliminated." (As a result, He made all foods clean.)20 Then He said, "What comes out of a man--that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of people's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, 22 adulteries, greed, evil actions, deceit, lewdness, stinginess, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Click to expand...

Romans 14:20 Do not tear down God's work because of food. Everything is clean, but it is wrong for a man to cause stumbling by what he eats.

Christians Misunderstanding that Jesus Declared All Food 'Clean'

Senior Veteran

Yair

Guest

Senior Veteran

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Yair

Guest

Yair

Guest

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Yair

Guest

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Yair

Guest

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency