Christians, how would you respond?

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

"I try not to stick with any ideology, because anything like that is how you hurt people. I just refuse to choose to believe anything, or dedicate my life to anything, because ideologies are dangerous. I prefer just to do what I want, try to keep myself contained from hurting others, and acknowledge that life just sucks, and there's nothing we can do about it." (Cosmic nihilism is what he said his philosophy is; the idea that nothing matters, and there's no point to anything, so just do what makes you happy & try not to hurt anyone; cynical hedonism is what I called it when he described it).

How do you respond?

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I'd ask him questions about that.

Sounds like he would be more interested in the commandments of Jesus than the religion. Can't go wrong there.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

The following is not a hypothetical, though for sake of writing I'll phrase it as such; this was regular conversations with my roommate from the past 2 years:

Imagine you're talking with someone; your conversation has been about whatever random & fun things you felt like talking about, and you're having a good time. As the conversation progresses, it reaches more serious topics, and you're excited about the chance to have fun with someone, and still have real conversation with them. The topic is religion, and you're a fairly devout Christian, dedicated to trying to form your life as God intends, aided by the help of the Church & a few small groups.

The person you're talking to already knows this about you; however, he doesn't profess any religion. You already know this, but in this conversation, you find out more detail about what he believes:

"I try not to stick with any ideology, because anything like that is how you hurt people. I just refuse to choose to believe anything, or dedicate my life to anything, because ideologies are dangerous. I prefer just to do what I want, try to keep myself contained from hurting others, and acknowledge that life just sucks, and there's nothing we can do about it." (Cosmic nihilism is what he said his philosophy is; the idea that nothing matters, and there's no point to anything, so just do what makes you happy & try not to hurt anyone; cynical hedonism is what I called it when he described it).

How do you respond?

There's a lot more I could say about the background of this guy; I lived with him for 2 years, I'd still be living with him now if I hadn't transferred colleges, and he has a very rough past that makes his mindset very understandable. He has strong psychopathic tendencies, suicidal thoughts, and he's on several medications for bipolar, depression, ADHD, and being able to sleep.

I'd also like to point out that it's been very valuable for me to have lived with him so long, and had so many deep conversations; his mindset is radically different from mine (a cynical atheist, compared to my virtue-based Catholicism), and in many ways it's very good to have regular conversation with someone so different. As frustrating as many of his views can be, especially with his incessant need to argue, being with him really made me think through things I'd never put much thought into before (how do we know Jesus really died?), and it's helped a lot with self-control; if I expressed frustration, I would've lost him. His girlfriend was raised by Catholic parents that forced every doctrine down everyone's throats, and she left religion altogether because of it; if I tried to convince him of any doctrine with a "Because the Bible says so" attitude, we wouldn't have been able to talk religion. If I wasn't so open to laughing about his satirical jokes against Christianity, he wouldn't have had the respect for the way I handled my faith that he does, and he wouldn't have cared too much to hear my opinions. I had to learn to laugh while praying for him, talk against his ignorance without ever getting frustrated; and if I hadn't lived with him (he was originally my roommate by random selection), I would've passed him off as just a lazy gamer. However, God made sure I lived with him, and developed a very unusual friendship with him, so we could learn from each other, and I thank Him for the weird experiences we've had.

So anyway...how do you evangelize someone who doesn't think any ideology should be followed, who doesn't think anything matters anyway, without getting frustrated & accepting him as he is, crude jokes & all?

May God bless us all & all the people we meet! May He choose interesting roommates, and may we always remember to learn from everyone we meet; there's always more to people than meets the eye, even if all you see is an argumentative lazy gamer who doesn't care about anything!

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There are two kinds of people in the world (as it relates to your situation).... the kind that take a reasonable stand on a position they care about and do what they can to better the world around them. And then there are those who will sit on the chair and watch the others try to make the world a better place. Your friend has something to add, something to give, something that would bless others. And right now, he is robbing them of that. We all have a gift, whether he thinks God gave it or it randomly popped up by luck when nature wrote his DNA.... and part of our life is learning to recognize, hone, and use that gift to the betterment of those around us.

Having been in a somewhat similar place as him, and knowing how I'd have reacted to evangelizing efforts at the time... I would probably just "be there" as a sort of living example of Christianity as a "real" thing instead of a theoretical ideology to reject on principle. If he asked questions about the faith, I would answer them honestly, but would for sure wait until he was interested in learning and brought it up on his own. In my experience, the nihilistic worldview is something you have to decide on your own to challenge; nobody could have talked me out of it until I was already actively looking for an alternative.

-Sasha- said:

nobody could have talked me out of it until I was already actively looking for an alternative.

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That why a good conversation starter, especially with young, is what do you think is wrong with the world.

One critique I've heard from atheists is that they feel Christians aren't interested in their lives or them as a person, but are singularly focused on converting them. Obviously from a Christian perspective, we would see this as a very deep interest in them as a person, but for someone with a materialistic outlook, their eternal salvation/soul isn't "real", isn't "them". So probably a good first step would be to meet them where they are, learn about what is important to them, what they view as their self, and try to help them work through some of their "real" issues. An example would be, they are depressed and stressed because they can't find a job... We could say "I'm praying for you." (and we should pray!) but we could also approach it in a way that they perceive as actually being helpful, such as looking through local job listings, asking people we know, etc. For them, the spiritual is utterly meaningless and many see Christians as being aloof and uncaring if our only response to them is something they view as little more than a fairy tale.

Out in the real world people treat others as friends without an agenda

timothyu said:

Out in the real world people treat others as friends without an agenda

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Hopefully being helpful isn't something that we would refer to as having an agenda in negative terms?

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

The following is not a hypothetical, though for sake of writing I'll phrase it as such; this was regular conversations with my roommate from the past 2 years:

Imagine you're talking with someone; your conversation has been about whatever random & fun things you felt like talking about, and you're having a good time. As the conversation progresses, it reaches more serious topics, and you're excited about the chance to have fun with someone, and still have real conversation with them. The topic is religion, and you're a fairly devout Christian, dedicated to trying to form your life as God intends, aided by the help of the Church & a few small groups.

The person you're talking to already knows this about you; however, he doesn't profess any religion. You already know this, but in this conversation, you find out more detail about what he believes:

"I try not to stick with any ideology, because anything like that is how you hurt people. I just refuse to choose to believe anything, or dedicate my life to anything, because ideologies are dangerous. I prefer just to do what I want, try to keep myself contained from hurting others, and acknowledge that life just sucks, and there's nothing we can do about it." (Cosmic nihilism is what he said his philosophy is; the idea that nothing matters, and there's no point to anything, so just do what makes you happy & try not to hurt anyone; cynical hedonism is what I called it when he described it).

How do you respond?

There's a lot more I could say about the background of this guy; I lived with him for 2 years, I'd still be living with him now if I hadn't transferred colleges, and he has a very rough past that makes his mindset very understandable. He has strong psychopathic tendencies, suicidal thoughts, and he's on several medications for bipolar, depression, ADHD, and being able to sleep.

I'd also like to point out that it's been very valuable for me to have lived with him so long, and had so many deep conversations; his mindset is radically different from mine (a cynical atheist, compared to my virtue-based Catholicism), and in many ways it's very good to have regular conversation with someone so different. As frustrating as many of his views can be, especially with his incessant need to argue, being with him really made me think through things I'd never put much thought into before (how do we know Jesus really died?), and it's helped a lot with self-control; if I expressed frustration, I would've lost him. His girlfriend was raised by Catholic parents that forced every doctrine down everyone's throats, and she left religion altogether because of it; if I tried to convince him of any doctrine with a "Because the Bible says so" attitude, we wouldn't have been able to talk religion. If I wasn't so open to laughing about his satirical jokes against Christianity, he wouldn't have had the respect for the way I handled my faith that he does, and he wouldn't have cared too much to hear my opinions. I had to learn to laugh while praying for him, talk against his ignorance without ever getting frustrated; and if I hadn't lived with him (he was originally my roommate by random selection), I would've passed him off as just a lazy gamer. However, God made sure I lived with him, and developed a very unusual friendship with him, so we could learn from each other, and I thank Him for the weird experiences we've had.

So anyway...how do you evangelize someone who doesn't think any ideology should be followed, who doesn't think anything matters anyway, without getting frustrated & accepting him as he is, crude jokes & all?

May God bless us all & all the people we meet! May He choose interesting roommates, and may we always remember to learn from everyone we meet; there's always more to people than meets the eye, even if all you see is an argumentative lazy gamer who doesn't care about anything!

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Ask him if his desire to avoid hurting others might be "do to others what you would have them do to you" that he's putting into action, or a part of it...and just wait to hear his answer (might come quickly or take a day or two), and then really listen, without judging, trying to listen to in a non-judging way for the real feeling underneath his philosophy (but sounds like you'd better not call his viewpoint an 'ideology' though!).

In other words, you aim to not judge. Paul instructed us to not judge the lost. Not.

The only seed that can save is the seed Christ explained to us in Mark chapter 4 though, see, and that's why this bit of seed, from Matthew ch 7, v12, is more potent than people imagine.

See, it's not us that make this seed grow, but its own virtue.

Not our virtue. The Word's virtue.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

and being able to sleep.

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Maybe you mean "not" able to sleep, here.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

"I try not to stick with any ideology, because anything like that is how you hurt people.

Click to expand...

An ideology can be a way of cookie-cutting people to all conform to a group's ways and beliefs and leaders. So, he may have a point, here.

-Sasha- said:

Hopefully being helpful isn't something that we would refer to as having an agenda in negative terms?

Click to expand...

It is when there is underlying motive to manoever into a position where an agenda such as evangelism can be met. Friendship and help by itself already fulfils the commandment without trying to sell the religion.,

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

The following is not a hypothetical, though for sake of writing I'll phrase it as such; this was regular conversations with my roommate from the past 2 years:

Imagine you're talking with someone; your conversation has been about whatever random & fun things you felt like talking about, and you're having a good time. As the conversation progresses, it reaches more serious topics, and you're excited about the chance to have fun with someone, and still have real conversation with them. The topic is religion, and you're a fairly devout Christian, dedicated to trying to form your life as God intends, aided by the help of the Church & a few small groups.

The person you're talking to already knows this about you; however, he doesn't profess any religion. You already know this, but in this conversation, you find out more detail about what he believes:

"I try not to stick with any ideology, because anything like that is how you hurt people. I just refuse to choose to believe anything, or dedicate my life to anything, because ideologies are dangerous. I prefer just to do what I want, try to keep myself contained from hurting others, and acknowledge that life just sucks, and there's nothing we can do about it." (Cosmic nihilism is what he said his philosophy is; the idea that nothing matters, and there's no point to anything, so just do what makes you happy & try not to hurt anyone; cynical hedonism is what I called it when he described it).

How do you respond?

There's a lot more I could say about the background of this guy; I lived with him for 2 years, I'd still be living with him now if I hadn't transferred colleges, and he has a very rough past that makes his mindset very understandable. He has strong psychopathic tendencies, suicidal thoughts, and he's on several medications for bipolar, depression, ADHD, and being able to sleep.

I'd also like to point out that it's been very valuable for me to have lived with him so long, and had so many deep conversations; his mindset is radically different from mine (a cynical atheist, compared to my virtue-based Catholicism), and in many ways it's very good to have regular conversation with someone so different. As frustrating as many of his views can be, especially with his incessant need to argue, being with him really made me think through things I'd never put much thought into before (how do we know Jesus really died?), and it's helped a lot with self-control; if I expressed frustration, I would've lost him. His girlfriend was raised by Catholic parents that forced every doctrine down everyone's throats, and she left religion altogether because of it; if I tried to convince him of any doctrine with a "Because the Bible says so" attitude, we wouldn't have been able to talk religion. If I wasn't so open to laughing about his satirical jokes against Christianity, he wouldn't have had the respect for the way I handled my faith that he does, and he wouldn't have cared too much to hear my opinions. I had to learn to laugh while praying for him, talk against his ignorance without ever getting frustrated; and if I hadn't lived with him (he was originally my roommate by random selection), I would've passed him off as just a lazy gamer. However, God made sure I lived with him, and developed a very unusual friendship with him, so we could learn from each other, and I thank Him for the weird experiences we've had.

So anyway...how do you evangelize someone who doesn't think any ideology should be followed, who doesn't think anything matters anyway, without getting frustrated & accepting him as he is, crude jokes & all?

May God bless us all & all the people we meet! May He choose interesting roommates, and may we always remember to learn from everyone we meet; there's always more to people than meets the eye, even if all you see is an argumentative lazy gamer who doesn't care about anything!

Click to expand...

Great post. It takes many repetitions to really learn how to speak with the unbeliever or agnostic, or even the religious legalist and yet not quote scripture. The devil is always trying to obscure and change the meanings of words, or find ways to avoid the topic of Jesus, particularly around someone who knows how to expose his lies. I would like to share my thoughts about this.

I would begin by building on a single truth that came out of your friends own mouth. Your friend said that he doesn't want to hurt anyone. I would have told him that the fact that he cares whether he hurts anyone is called empathy, and that Christians call that empathy the Word of God in mankind. His Word is our goodness. Explain that God has instilled a Truth inside of everyone, that knows it's morally correct to treat others as you would want to be treated. Evangelism is about speaking the Truth of God to a worldly mindset, and this is a sound reasoning to build upon.

1)You need to define God as the source of the energy that created the universe. In this way God has to exist even as the universe exists. Never let your mind accept God as a belief. This necessarily means that the term God is an axiom. You will have to establish that God exists as such. Why? Because the devil holds people captive by conflating God with religion and religion with faith and faith with belief, all inferring "opinion". If you entertain the premise that there is more than one god so that every person's own ideology as pertains to god deserves equal respect, then you will fail in speaking the Truth of God. You must know what the term God implies to be able to speak about God and not be derailed. You can deal with this by saying that there are many images of god just as there are many religions, but there can only be one God for all of mankind because there is only one source of the energy that created the one universe and everything in it.

Another form of the same argument, is that the devil likes people to think that no one can know the Truth. People who think this way are deceived into thinking that they are open minded and tolerant while anyone who thinks they know the Truth is brainwashed. Hence in the deceived mind it's considered impolite to push your beliefs upon others. That of course is hypocrisy since saying you shouldn't push your belief is pushing your belief. So one way to address this argument is to point out that it's a contradiction in reasoning to claim to know the truth that no one knows the Truth. But this can hurt people's pride, so it's better just to say that everyone knows the "Moral Truth", to Love others as you would want to be loved.

2) After establishing that there has to be a God when God is defined correctly, and that everyone knows the moral Truth, then hopefully you have gained the credibility to mention the Christ and be listened to. The Christ is usually best introduced into a conversation by saying the term Christ means the True Image of God sent by God. This causes people to wonder what that means. You can then explain that we all have some type of imagery of God, but that no human ever imagined the Christ and no one invented him in their imagination, he was sent by God. Contained in Him is the revelation of the True Character of God which is how God wants us to know Him. And this Image came as a man, was tortured and nailed to a cross by both the worldly secular and religious authorities, and yet this man Jesus forgave those who mocked and scourged him, saying forgive them Father for they know not what they do, even as they crucified him. Even because this is How God chose to reveal the Divine Eternal Love that can never die. And this is how faith is defined, that God/Love is Eternal, that God is forever trustworthy. I do not argue in narratives that present faith as something other than what I described.

3)All things are built on faith. That is to say it cannot be proven that God is Eternal, nor can it be disproven. This is why a person cannot prove God/Love is trustworthy. It must be argued that to believe God is good, is more reasonable than believing our Maker is wicked, and also more reasonable to believe goodness is Eternal than evil is eternal. For where did our goodness come from so as to know what is goodness? Therefore to doubt the integrity of our Maker as trustworthy is what corrupts the soul. A corrupt image of god corrupts the person who reasons upon it. Therefore the Christ is an incorruptible or Holy Image of God, sent by God to believe in, be healed, and be saved. And that is why Jesus is called His Son. This faith is what is under attack in this world. In this world we are ever tempted to believe that we should look out more for our own well-being because that's what everyone else is going to do. That is truly what unbelief in God means since to know the Person of God is to know Love and believe that Love is Eternal. To believe/trust in the Christ is to believe/trust in God.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

how do you evangelize someone who doesn't think any ideology should be followed, who doesn't think anything matters anyway

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Challenge him with the reality of practical Christianity as explained by an atheist see:-
As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God

And remind him that he is following an ideology of not following ideology.
Everything he believes in and benefits from comes from Christian ideas so he needs to justify his believes by using other philsophical ideas.

timothyu said:

It is when there is underlying motive to manoever into a position where an agenda such as evangelism can be met. Friendship and help by itself already fulfils the commandment without trying to sell the religion.,

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I have never sought to manipulate anyone for the sake of the gospel. It is wrong and I don’t want anyone manipulating me either. Irrespective of the cause or justification they use.

I have been able to impact people most successively through love, kindness, and a sincere interest in their well-being. In many instances this has paved the way for heartfelt discussions on faith and other matters. But that wasn’t the point of the connection.

What you describe is unethical in my mind.

I second Cold Case Christianity after buying it for an theist who nearly came to faith through it. Not quite though.

I bought it for someone l knew. It was not for me.