How many of you who profess to believe in the necessity of bloodletting to get right with God, if Jesus had not come yet, would be willing to put a lamb on an altar and slit its throat so that your sins could be forgiven? This is your view of what God is and what he requires, so, to be consistent, you must answer that you would be willing to do such.
"You said: Christ DID NOT HAVE TO nor did He really want to go through the torture humiliation and murder, but out of Love for us did it."
"The writers say “endure” and “scorning its shame” suggesting a huge displeasure?"
"Does a soldier really want to give up his life in battle to save his comrades, but will out of Love for them? He was not happy doing it."
"Would it have been better: if people could fulfill their earthly objective without sinning & thus not needing Christ to going to the cross (another way) or would that have taken the pleasure of helping people away from Christ?"
"What makes Christ’s blood “precious”, if Christ did not value that blood in His veins?"
"Again what makes it “precious” (Hard to give up)?"
"Death comes after the torture, humiliation & murder of Christ & it is really when the atonement sacrifice stopped, as Jesus said before His death 'it is finished'."
"God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. I do not like the word “unpunished” since the same Greek word also means “undisciplined."
"How many of you who profess to believe in the necessity of bloodletting to get right with God, if Jesus had not come yet, would be willing to put a lamb on an altar and slit its throat so that your sins could be forgiven? This is your view of what God is and what he requires, so, to be consistent, you must answer that you would be willing to do such."
If I were an old testament Jew and believed it necessary I would do so without hesitation. Why would that be an issue?How many of you who profess to believe in the necessity of bloodletting to get right with God, if Jesus had not come yet, would be willing to put a lamb on an altar and slit its throat so that your sins could be forgiven? This is your view of what God is and what he requires, so, to be consistent, you must answer that you would be willing to do such.
Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.
Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Congratulations, after much study you have finally figured out blood represented life, so you want to discount this aspect of atonement was instituted by God but you are sadly mistaken. I challenge you to answer my previously asked question, why did God not accept the leaf aprons and replace them with animal skins? If you do not answer I am going to assume you are not convinced of your own assumption.Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.
Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? ...
The problem with that is when you refuse to believe major aspects of His word, are you really in His word? Do you really know the truth? He definitely taught that He must die a bloody death that we might live. Did He humanly want to? Absolutely not! Did He have to in order to fulfill God's plan of redemption? Absolutely! Do we have to die a bloody death to follow Him? Not unless we are called by him to do so but we must be willing to. If we are not it shows we are only willing to follow Him in a limited way.It is, because Christian means a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus is defined by this:
Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
It is enough to remain in teachings of Jesus. And I recommend it, it is much better to follow Jesus than some other.
I did try to break apart the explanation for atonement, by going over just the blood which should leave you with lots of questions, since everything is tied together: we have the ransom, the way atonement was done in the OT which explains somethings about Christ’s atonement sacrifice, what part atonement plays in forgiveness, atonement as a process and not just one single act, “My God, My God why have you forsaken me…”, Is. 53, Psalms 22, Acts 2, and so on.Thank you for sharing all of that; it was good. Yes, please share more and as much as you will.
Priests did that and that was in Judaism only. Let's be honest here: Your beliefs against blood sacrifices are not biblical and are contrary to Judaism's and Christianity's beliefs and history.
ewq answered this very well. Only Israel was required to do this & only the Levites were chosen to do this priestly service. Under the Law it was done or you died. It was that straightforward. There was no mercy under the Law. All did it or they died. That is the just requirements of the Law & the holiness of God.
One who does not understand this as treating God as holy & obeying Him or else, ignores the whole OT Law. It ignores the sacrifice God made for Adam & Eve.
God was willing to do it Himself at the very beginning!
Abel offered a better sacrifice. Noah offered sacrifices of clean animals after the flood & what was God's response?
Genesis 8:20,21 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord & took some of every clean animal & some of every clean bird & offered burnt offerings on the altar. AND WHEN THE LORD SMELLED THE PLEASING AROMA, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
Numbers 15:3 And you present an offering made by fire to the LORD from the herd or flock TO PRODUCE A PLEASING AROMA TO THE LORD--either a burnt offering or a sacrifice to fulfill a vow or as a freewill or festival offering.
Ex 29:18 Then burn the entire ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire. (also Lev 1:9)
That is how God viewed it when done right with the right attitude & heart. But this was a picture of what Christ would do in fulfillment of the OT Law. The reality belonged to Christ where the former was a 'shadow.'
So we see the reality applied in the NT using the same language, as a fulfillment of the necessity of the prior requirements under the first covenant.
I Pet 2:5 You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:16 To be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an acceptable offering to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering & a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savor.
Phil 4:18 At the moment I have all I need—and more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable & pleasing to God.
Heb 13:6 And do not neglect to do good & to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
2 Cor 2:14,15 But thanks be to God, who always leads us triumphantly as captives in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him. For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
Romans 12:1 Therefore I exhort you, brothers, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, which is your reasonable service.
Yes, let's be honest. The OT prophets believed as I do.
Congratulations, after much study you have finally figured out blood represented life, so you want to discount this aspect of atonement was instituted by God but you are sadly mistaken. I challenge you to answer my previously asked question, why did God not accept the leaf aprons and replace them with animal skins? If you do not answer I am going to assume you are not convinced of your own assumption.
It is, because Christian means a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus is defined by this:
Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
It is enough to remain in teachings of Jesus. And I recommend it, it is much better to follow Jesus than some other.
I did try to break apart the explanation for atonement, by going over just the blood which should leave you with lots of questions, since everything is tied together: we have the ransom, the way atonement was done in the OT which explains somethings about Christ’s atonement sacrifice, what part atonement plays in forgiveness, atonement as a process and not just one single act, “My God, My God why have you forsaken me…”, Is. 53, Psalms 22, Acts 2, and so on.
Any place I begin will leave lots of unanswered questions so I need to know your specific questions to address them first for I can explain with many words:
God did not forsake Christ while on the cross.
God does not need anything especially the blood to forgive (forgiveness being a transaction).
We are the ones being “blood thirsty”, needing Christ’s blood.
There is a ransom but God is not the kidnapper nor is satan, since satan cannot hold anything from God.
We are personally responsible for Christ going to the cross.
To begin with:
It is very good, you do not even want to try to grasp the horror of Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered to the point you reject it all together.
Your question might be better addressed: “What could possible cause/require such a horrendous tragedy and then to be given the answer “God”, makes it all the more unbelievable/unthinkable”. How could anyone want to worship such a blood thirty tyrant?
You have to keep the objective in mind all the time, because the objective drives everything and it is not God’s objective, but man’s objective, since God’s objective is doing or allowing everything that does happen to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.
Christ going to the cross is not to help God out with some problem God is having (like unable to forgive without seeing blood first or a problem with satan), but Christ did it to help willing humans in fulfilling their objective.
Peter gives the first and very best, for his audience, “Christ Crucified” sermon in Acts 2 so please read Acts 2:14-41 which is very short and to the point.
Listen, not only, to what Peter said, but what Peter did not say. Peter did not say: Christ went in your place to the cross, Christ defeated satan, sin or death on the cross, do you (the audience) feel the Love or Christ did this to satisfy God’s wrath. What Peter emphasized was the fact: “You cruelly tortured and murdered the Messiah Jesus”, it was not to be a feel-good sermon, but a really hard sermon for the crowd to listen to. The sermon was to get them so far down they had no where to turn and desperately said: “What can we do?!” The crowd should have been expecting lighting to come down from heaven to destroy them, but instead heard the good news gift Acts 2:38.
When those first century people realized what they did they had a death blow to their heart (the worst feeling they could have and live), so should we not experience the same feeling when we come to realize what we cause Christ to go through.
God making and allowing this unbelievable huge tragedy the product of my sin, makes my sin debt unbelievably huge, but that helps in my fulfilling my objective, the greater the tragedy I initially caused the better for me. (I am not saying sin all the more, but my sins put Christ on the cross).
Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?
The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.
There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)
This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).
This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.
All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).
In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.
This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.
OK we can work from there, if you want to go deeper.
They clearly did not. Your belief here has been thoroughly refuted by scripture and historic fact.
If I were an old testament Jew and believed it necessary I would do so without hesitation. Why would that be an issue?
Most mainline churches have a mix of theology. You're not required to reject the Virgin Birth, and certainly not the resurrection.
"It all depends on 'how' you think the Passover feast, along with all of the other sacrifices in the Torah, plays into the meaning of Christ's death on the Cross."
"God does not need anything ESPECIALLY THE BLOOD to forgive (forgiveness being a transaction)"
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?