Christian Liberty

Frisbee · Apr 6, 2008

Christian liberty is something that almost everybody has an opinion about, and they usually are extremely personal and based upon life experience to frame the particular belief.

For example the subject of wine.

There are some who are adamant that the answer is no period. Not a little, not ever. Others believe that wine can be used in communion. And still others are okay with a glass of wine with dinner. Not many would give a wink and a nod to drinking to the point of becoming drunk. But I think you get the point regarding differences of opinion regarding Christian liberty.

I'm reading a book called the Silas Diary by Gene Edwards, and he has taken the Book of Acts and written it so that it reads like novel. He has researched life in the 1st century AD, and to help the reader better understand what the Apostles lives were like in that day and age, he embellished much of these ordinary details that the reader might otherwise not be aware of.

For example he describes the trip from Selucia to Salmis on the island of Crete in great detail, and paints a picture of what it was like to go through the hardship of ordinary travel in biblical times. We oftentimes use our experiences as points of reference when reading scripture, and lose sight of many of the details of the picture the writer was painting, or took for granted as matters that were just commonly understand and not in need of further comment.

One of the things that comes up is the Sabbath. We take for granted that it is a settled matter, but when Paul was on his 1st missionary journey he was traveling to synagogues that had believers in them, and the very idea of anything different than what they knew all their lives must have been quite a struggle at first.

We all have our own ideas of what Christian liberty is and what it means to us personally, but I was just interested in how some of you felt and thought about this, too!

woman.at.the.well · Apr 6, 2008

Hi Frisbee:

To me - Christian liberty is the ultimate liberty one can obtain while on this earth in its present form. It is a freedom that is on one hand almost indescribable; yet on the other hand a very real palpable thing that we experience in our spirit. It is freedom "the world" can not see or understand; because it is something we can only achieve once we profess and truly take Christ as our Lord and Savior --and He begins to set us free from what binds us here on this earth.

Frisbee · Apr 6, 2008

That is so true!

I used to drink every single day, and when I got saved that was it! Not only haven't I drank since then, but the Lord has removed every desire for that. Just yesterday I had to go to a company social function and everyone there was having drinks, and I just had a root beer and thought to myself that me before I was saved would have never done that. Christ has literally freed me from the bondage of alcohol, and I agree with you... it is indeed an ENORMOUS aspect of true Christian liberty!

Thanks for sharing Woman at the Weel!!!

Nadiine · Apr 7, 2008

one thing we should pay close attn. to in this aspect is to make sure we aren't being "carnal" when pushing our "Christian rights" as if in a rebellious way.
Liberty is not about rebellion and being angry at those we consider "legalists" who dont' indulge in many.

It's my personal opinion that the less you care about these liberties to indulge in what's questionable, the less carnal you actually may be and more humble and pliable you are to what God wills for us in this life.

It's not about liberties, but obeying God and freely enjoying what we have no guilty conscience over - and as always, whatever we do indulge in we aren't supposed to be stumbling others thru it.

Liberties are great, but God knows where we're at personally in our relationship with Him.
It's all in the heart & our true relationship with God.

Frisbee · Apr 7, 2008

I agree Nadiine. If a person is focused on the so-called liberty, it is often not a liberty but a perceived excuse to continue in carnality in various forms. Walking after the Spirit is not just key, it is the foundaiton to understanding Christian liberty because you simply can't if you're walking in the flesh.

IamRedeemed · Apr 7, 2008

Praise the Lord for your testimony!

Frisbee said:
That is so true!

I used to drink every single day, and when I got saved that was it! Not only haven't I drank since then, but the Lord has removed every desire for that. Just yesterday I had to go to a company social function and everyone there was having drinks, and I just had a root beer and thought to myself that me before I was saved would have never done that. Christ has literally freed me from the bondage of alcohol, and I agree with you... it is indeed an ENORMOUS aspect of true Christian liberty!

Thanks for sharing Woman at the Weel!!!

IamRedeemed · Apr 7, 2008

And the Church said.....

We are free from many "religious laws" but we are not free to exercise iniquity. Any who believe that we are "because we are under grace and not the law." 'hath deceived themselves'.

(also, we may be free to have a glass of wine, (we are told not to be drunken with wine but be filled with the Holy Ghost, as well as strong drink is for the sick and the dying), however even though we are "free to have a glass" of wine, in some cases it may not be prudent for us to do (such as in the case of any who were once in bondage) and in other cases it might not be prudent to do as it might cause someone else to stumble.

That's where discernment must be exercised. Same thing with pork for instance. If it would offend a Jewish person you are trying to win to the truth in Christ, you wouldn't eat pork in front of them, just because you can. That is an example of "loving thy neighbor" in the Biblical way.

Nadiine said:
one thing we should pay close attn. to in this aspect is to make sure we aren't being "carnal" when pushing our "Christian rights" as if in a rebellious way.
Liberty is not about rebellion and being angry at those we consider "legalists" who dont' indulge in many.

It's my personal opinion that the less you care about these liberties to indulge in what's questionable, the less carnal you actually may be and more humble and pliable you are to what God wills for us in this life.

It's not about liberties, but obeying God and freely enjoying what we have no guilty conscience over - and as always, whatever we do indulge in we aren't supposed to be stumbling others thru it.

Liberties are great, but God knows where we're at personally in our relationship with Him.
It's all in the heart & our true relationship with God.

Frisbee said:
I agree Nadiine. If a person is focused on the so-called liberty, it is often not a liberty but a perceived excuse to continue in carnality in various forms. Walking after the Spirit is not just key, it is the foundaiton to understanding Christian liberty because you simply can't if you're walking in the flesh.

Frisbee · Apr 7, 2008

I really like the turn this thread is taking!

All too often discussions that should encourage believers and deepen our verticle relationship with God, end up being shouting matches over picyune differences of opinion. So far though, I am seeing general agreement that although liberty does in fact exist, it isn't a free license to dance on the line of right and wrong.

I have a cousin who I talk with almost every day. He believes, but he struggles with alcohol just as I had before I turned my life over ot the Lord. I was working for him a few years ago and my departure from beer drinking buddy to saved and no longer interested in bars put a trmendous strain on our relationship. He politely let me go and asked me to move out of his trailer. I was just getting back on feet after a year of hard times, and the timing couldn't have been worse. So I thought.

I had applied for a job a few months earlier that I didn't get, and the day my world came crasing down around me, I was called by the company who didn't hire me in the first round, asking if I could start Monday.

My cousin saw a few things, the important was that a Christian walking by faith and not by sight was very obviously walking straight through the fire and God was there every step of the way. And although being laid off largely because I wasn't progressing the way he wanted me to progress (remain his beer drinking pal) strained out relationship as friends, he kept watching me. Perhaps hoping I would stumble. I hope not, but perhaps. But I didn't stumble. And months and months afterwards he told me that he was stunned by the change he saw in me, and we slowly started to rebuild our relationship.

Well I tell you all this because he is looking at soemthing he wants himself, a real relationship with God and a walk that doesn't struggle with drinking in particular. Every time we talk on the phone we talk about the faith, but it always begins with him telling how little he has been drinking. Only one beer last night, etc.

The legalism line of thought is something he uses to excuse laying down somehting he knows he must lay down in order to get anywhere with the Lord. He is stuck, just as I was stuck for 25 years.

Christian liberty to me, as you all have pointed out here, is liberation not free license. I am again delighted to see this has taken this turn and not dove off the ddep into dancing on the line of right and wrong and trying to justify actions with quotes from the bible.

IamRedeemed · Apr 7, 2008

Amen brother. I am too!

What a wonderful testimony too!
I can relate to what happened to you. It is amazing that it is truly the darkest just before the dawn and the Lord is surely with us. Looking back over many times in my life, I can see how God was with me and the wondrous ways He moved on my behalf. He opened doors that no man can shut and shut other doors that no man can open. He surely made a way each time, when it "appeared" that there was no way.

When I got to the part when you spoke of your cousin seeing in you something he wanted for himself, a real relationship with the Lord, it really got me choked up. Your cousin is being held in bondage and he knows it and he does want what he sees you have. I am glad you have had compassion on him and that you did not become bitter, seeing how what the devil meant for evil, God turned into good for you because you love Him and how that was such a witness to your cousin much to the enemy's dismay.

I am sure he didn't actually "want" you to fall, just that if you would have, it would have made it a lot easier to continue to lie to himself and make excuses, because just in the little you shared, it is apparent that he does know this bondage keeps him from having the relationship with God that he wants to have.

Not because he needs to clean up before he comes back to the Lord, but because in his continuing down this path he knows is not God's will for him,
he hears the Holy Spirit's voice calling him back and the enemy uses his bondage against him, accusing him and therefore by his own shame or feelings of guilt, keeping him isolated from the Lord and whose power can make him free.

I encourage you to continue being salt and light. May God continue to use you in this mighty way in your cousin's life in Jesus' name.

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Frisbee said:
I really like the turn this thread is taking!

All too often discussions that should encourage believers and deepen our verticle relationship with God, end up being shouting matches over picyune differences of opinion. So far though, I am seeing general agreement that although liberty does in fact exist, it isn't a free license to dance on the line of right and wrong.

I have a cousin who I talk with almost every day. He believes, but he struggles with alcohol just as I had before I turned my life over ot the Lord. I was working for him a few years ago and my departure from beer drinking buddy to saved and no longer interested in bars put a trmendous strain on our relationship. He politely let me go and asked me to move out of his trailer. I was just getting back on feet after a year of hard times, and the timing couldn't have been worse. So I thought.

I had applied for a job a few months earlier that I didn't get, and the day my world came crasing down around me, I was called by the company who didn't hire me in the first round, asking if I could start Monday.

My cousin saw a few things, the important was that a Christian walking by faith and not by sight was very obviously walking straight through the fire and God was there every step of the way. And although being laid off largely because I wasn't progressing the way he wanted me to progress (remain his beer drinking pal) strained out relationship as friends, he kept watching me. Perhaps hoping I would stumble. I hope not, but perhaps. But I didn't stumble. And months and months afterwards he told me that he was stunned by the change he saw in me, and we slowly started to rebuild our relationship.

Well I tell you all this because he is looking at soemthing he wants himself, a real relationship with God and a walk that doesn't struggle with drinking in particular. Every time we talk on the phone we talk about the faith, but it always begins with him telling how little he has been drinking. Only one beer last night, etc.

The legalism line of thought is something he uses to excuse laying down somehting he knows he must lay down in order to get anywhere with the Lord. He is stuck, just as I was stuck for 25 years.

Christian liberty to me, as you all have pointed out here, is liberation not free license. I am again delighted to see this has taken this turn and not dove off the ddep into dancing on the line of right and wrong and trying to justify actions with quotes from the bible.

Frisbee · Apr 7, 2008

IamRedeemed thank you so much for those words of encouragement, you seem to know exactly what was going on between my cousin and I. All I can do now is to continue to share the word with him as often as he'll hear me and pray that the Lord brings him to that place where he knows he needs to be.

Funny part is that, like you said, he knows that it is something that ust needs to be laid down. God has to do this though, all I can do is pray and be there when he wants to talk about it. We honestly talk about God at least 3 or 4 days a week, so it's just a matter of when he decides to open up and let God in!

woman.at.the.well · Apr 8, 2008

Frisbee said:
That is so true!

I used to drink every single day, and when I got saved that was it! Not only haven't I drank since then, but the Lord has removed every desire for that. Just yesterday I had to go to a company social function and everyone there was having drinks, and I just had a root beer and thought to myself that me before I was saved would have never done that. Christ has literally freed me from the bondage of alcohol, and I agree with you... it is indeed an ENORMOUS aspect of true Christian liberty!

Thanks for sharing Woman at the Weel!!!

It is so amazing isn't it Frisbee, what He does in our life when we begin to yield to Him? We have something in common (besides Christ of course); He has set me free from the bondage of alcohol as well (among other things like cigarettes, etc). It is just the neatest thing to wake up everyday and not be a slave to something that essentially only hurts us.

God is amazing! He works in many paradoxes just like this. That's the part the "world" doesn't "get." Their so-called freedom is actually bondage; and God's so-called "rules" are actually what gets us on the right track to TRUE freedom! God is good!

Nadiine · Apr 8, 2008

woman.at.the.well said:
It is so amazing isn't it Frisbee, what He does in our life when we begin to yield to Him? We have something in common (besides Christ of course); He has set me free from the bondage of alcohol as well (among other things like cigarettes, etc). It is just the neatest thing to wake up everyday and not be a slave to something that essentially only hurts us.

God is amazing! He works in many paradoxes just like this. That's the part the "world" doesn't "get." Their so-called freedom is actually bondage; and God's so-called "rules" are actually what gets us on the right track to TRUE freedom! God is good!

Ya that's the truth of it too.
But you can't see it as truth until you're delivered from it by Christ.

Something that I just saw that pertains to this very thing this am. was while I was flipping the remote to see what was on tv.
I saw "Snoop Doggies Angels" - probly something about the girls Snoop Doggy "digs" ROFLOL :o
Anyhoooooooooo , my first thought was "how sad and empty" to just be engaged physically with all those women yet miss out on real love and committment and appreciate one another as human beings.
I thought it was a revolving curse to live that way in depravity - always needing more to fulfill some needs we can't satisfy.

I guess people can get jealous of others having their fill of worldly stuff, me personally, I prefer a simple life in Christ - richer, fuller, more meaning and not having to run after cravings.
(*except for COFFEE*) lol

Frisbee · Apr 9, 2008

You hear people say the words "Christian world view" often, and this is where it gets real. From the world's perspective things appear quite different than they actually are in light of the knowledge of truth. For example...

There are Christian drug recovery ministries out there, and many drug treatment programs as well. Both attempt to treat the addiction, but only the Christian program addresses the soul, the very reason that person was trying ot fill a void in there life in the first place. Yes, it is a chemical addiciton in many cases, but that is only half of the truth of the matter.

We are born into this world with a God shaped hole in our hearts, and folks who turn to drugs and alcohol are very often and specifically trying to fill that void with a feeling that replaces God, or appears to fill that need for a season.

Nadiine you said:

I prefer a simple life in Christ - richer, fuller, more meaning and not having to run after cravings

And amen sister!

Isn't Christian liberty largely the ability to see the world as we were created to experience it? God gave us free will and desires that none should perish. This can only mean that He has created all of the conditions for a happy, healthy, full and rich life in Him. Conversely, it means that no matter we do in life outside of that, we are destined to find emptiness in everything that life has to offer. Countless tales of having it all and still being depressed and feeling empty aren't just common, theyare the de facto standard. Contrawise tales of believers who have nothing but a love for God and a desire to serve Him all the days of their lives, find life rich, meaningful and with purpose.

No wonder folks turn to drugs and alcohol, why wouldn't you want to simply feel better. I know I did. It wasn't until two things happened that my life exploded into life...

I got saved was the first and most obvious, but even that was missing something. I was a luke warm Christian for the 25 years. And although I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and had a personal brush with God that words are incapable of describing, I was still missing something!

I hadn't turned my life over to him. I was clinging on to me, and as a result I was incomplete.

And that is the part that non-believers just can't understand! You MUST lose your life to save it. When we are saved we die to ourselves, so unless we finish the process by submitting to God, then we are walking through life lost and without purpose. You can't walk through life for you, when you were created to worship Him.

woman.at.the.well · Apr 9, 2008

Frisbee said:
You hear people say the words "Christian world view" often, and this is where it gets real. From the world's perspective things appear quite different than they actually are in light of the knowledge of truth. For example...

There are Christian drug recovery ministries out there, and many drug treatment programs as well. Both attempt to treat the addiction, but only the Christian program addresses the soul, the very reason that person was trying ot fill a void in there life in the first place. Yes, it is a chemical addiciton in many cases, but that is only half of the truth of the matter.

We are born into this world with a God shaped hole in our hearts, and folks who turn to drugs and alcohol are very often and specifically trying to fill that void with a feeling that replaces God, or appears to fill that need for a season.

Nadiine you said:

And amen sister!

Isn't Christian liberty largely the ability to see the world as we were created to experience it? God gave us free will and desires that none should perish. This can only mean that He has created all of the conditions for a happy, healthy, full and rich life in Him. Conversely, it means that no matter we do in life outside of that, we are destined to find emptiness in everything that life has to offer. Countless tales of having it all and still being depressed and feeling empty aren't just common, theyare the de facto standard. Contrawise tales of believers who have nothing but a love for God and a desire to serve Him all the days of their lives, find life rich, meaningful and with purpose.

No wonder folks turn to drugs and alcohol, why wouldn't you want to simply feel better. I know I did. It wasn't until two things happened that my life exploded into life...

I got saved was the first and most obvious, but even that was missing something. I was a luke warm Christian for the 25 years. And although I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and had a personal brush with God that words are incapable of describing, I was still missing something!

I hadn't turned my life over to him. I was clinging on to me, and as a result I was incomplete.

And that is the part that non-believers just can't understand! You MUST lose your life to save it. When we are saved we die to ourselves, so unless we finish the process by submitting to God, then we are walking through life lost and without purpose. You can't walk through life for you, when you were created to worship Him.

brother! Philippians 1:21
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Frisbee · Apr 10, 2008

woman.at.the.well said:
brother! Philippians 1:21
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

My fav book in the bible!!!

bling · Apr 10, 2008

Some how when we start talking about Christian Liberties we wind up talking about what Christians can not do. We are in the age of jubilee which means we can worship any time, any place and all the time. We have the power to do good and not bad, so let us look to the good we can be doing in the next 60 seconds and not the bad stuff.

Frisbee · Apr 10, 2008

Actually I thought we weren't talking about dos and donts!

I shared a testimony about my struggles with alcohol, but I was talking about me and how I was set free from the bondage of sin as being another form of Crhistian liberty. Woman at the well introduced the idea, and we all have been talking about it.

If you or anyone are fine with a glass of wine at dinner, I have nothing to say about that. I don't see it as a sin, but it is something that I wont and can't do.

This isn't the same as talking about what Christians can and can't do. There are very clear and very hard lines though, I do believe that. Absolutely!

For example the answer to pornography is no. Not adult porn, no kiddie porn, no gay porn, no straight porn... the answer is no porn. Christian liberty is not a license to sin under a false sense of thinking that we can't sin. We can, and do.

bling · Apr 14, 2008

Frisbee said:
Actually I thought we weren't talking about dos and donts!

I shared a testimony about my struggles with alcohol, but I was talking about me and how I was set free from the bondage of sin as being another form of Crhistian liberty. Woman at the well introduced the idea, and we all have been talking about it.

If you or anyone are fine with a glass of wine at dinner, I have nothing to say about that. I don't see it as a sin, but it is something that I wont and can't do.

This isn't the same as talking about what Christians can and can't do. There are very clear and very hard lines though, I do believe that. Absolutely!

For example the answer to pornography is no. Not adult porn, no kiddie porn, no gay porn, no straight porn... the answer is no porn. Christian liberty is not a license to sin under a false sense of thinking that we can't sin. We can, and do.

Good post.

Nadiine · Apr 14, 2008

I'd make 1 note here to say that some people do think that drinking alchohol (any alcohol) is a sin. They base that on the wine that's mentioned in scripture not being fermented.

So it's not just that some are being legalistic on that 1 issue, they truly believe it's wrong to drink it based on scripture and Jewish custom.
I think it has some merit from what I've heard of it.

psalms 91 · Apr 14, 2008

The people drank wine many times because of water and the sin is not in drinking wine or alcohol but in getting drunk.

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