Christ as the Rock

VoW,
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Um, Jesus was and is GOD, both before and after the Crucifixion. And God's words take precendence over anyone else's!
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That's true only if you believe Paul wrote 2/3s of the NT out of his own head.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

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Well, Luther thought the Pauline letters were more important than the Gospel...
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I'd have to agree with Luther. So do many Christians. The thing is, some parts of the Bible are less relevant for the church today than other parts of the Bible. eg I'd rather study the Pauline letters TO the church (ie me) first then to dwell on Leviticus or Deuteronomy, although both are God's Word.

To Andrew:

Jesus was God from the beginning. He obtained his Humanity from His mother, Mary, but He has existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit since before time began. From the moment of his fleshly conception, He was 100% Divine, 100% Man. Jesus did NOT obtain His divinity at the Resurrection.

The Pauline letters may be more relevant to the Church of today than Leviticus, true, but the Pauline letters should not ever take on a greater importance than the Gospel. The Gospel is THE message of the New Testament.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

To JohnP:

1 Cor 10:3-4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that this single verse in the New Testament is used time and again to "prove" that Jesus is the Rock to which He referred when discussing Peter.

However, the entire passage that this verse is taken from is never shown, and it should be quoted in CONTEXT. Paul is discussing the Israelites under the leadership of Moses, and he talks of their journey in the desert. Moses strikes the rock and water issues forth, quenching the thirst of the Israelites. The ROCK that Moses strikes is the SOURCE of life, this is what Paul is referring to. Jesus is the SOURCE of life in the New Testament.

Paul's reference to ROCK in this case is just a reminder of the same ROCK references to GOD that are used in the Old Testament.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

louis u said that old interpretation before reformation might not be true
are u trying to say that christians before the reformation are heretics
if it is true why did u not believe it

to andrew
whatever it is YOU MUST TAKE WHAT CHRIST SAY AS THE TOP PIORITY
OTHERS COME SECOND TO IT
it doesn't matter where he spoke it

"are u trying to say that christians before the reformation are heretics
if it is true why did u not believe it "

Nope. I'm saying that just as the catholics believe their LATER interpreations of scripture through sacred tradition are correct, so do we. I'd say just because a 'church father' said it doesn't make it correct. It means they were speaking with the wisdom of study, but like origen, they can get it wrong.

Vow,

"Jesus was God from the beginning. He obtained his Humanity from His mother, Mary, but He has existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit since before time began. From the moment of his fleshly conception, He was 100% Divine, 100% Man. Jesus did NOT obtain His divinity at the Resurrection."

Fully agree. But protestants believe that Jesus after the cross is quite "different" from Jesus before the cross. eg.
1. He is now our advocate and high priest.
2. He remains in his glorified man form becos he is representing man.
3. He was glorified and given a name above every other name.

in short, there is a 'difference'.

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but the Pauline letters should not ever take on a greater importance than the Gospel
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What is the Gospel Vow? Strictly speaking, it is not Matthew Mark Luke John. A person reading those books cant really grasp the Gospel yet cos the mystery had not been fully revealed yet, exept after the cross where with the Holy Spirit's revelation, the Apostles began to see the whole picture by revelation from God and began to preach and teach. eg Paul received the revelation and commission to preach to the Gentiles ie us non Jews. So my point is that you wld get a better understanding of the gospel 'mystery' by reading the Epistles esp of Paul rather than say the parables Jesus told.

To Andrew:

"Protestants" believe something entirely different about Jesus after the Resurrection than "Catholics" do?

Please provide references! All Christians believe in the same Christ!


The Gospels contain the core message of Jesus, Andrew. They contain His ministry, His life, His death, and His resurrection. They contain His words of everlasting life. Acts of the Apostles is about the CHURCH, and the Pauline letters are directions to the Church on how to live the Christian life.

The Gospels contain much, much more information than just "parables." They contain the actual, living, true Words of God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Psalm 62:2
He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.


2 Samuel 22:2
And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

Matthew 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:



Psalm 89:26
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.


Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Deuteronomy 32
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Deuteronomy 32:15
But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.


2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?



Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?


2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Deuteronomy 32:31
For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

1 Samuel 2:2
There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Luke 20
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

NICE Julie, I'll use those! Thanx!

Originally posted by Andrew
Vow,

"Jesus was God from the beginning. He obtained his Humanity from His mother, Mary, but He has existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit since before time began. From the moment of his fleshly conception, He was 100% Divine, 100% Man. Jesus did NOT obtain His divinity at the Resurrection."

Fully agree. But protestants believe that Jesus after the cross is quite "different" from Jesus before the cross. eg.
1. He is now our advocate and high priest.
2. He remains in his glorified man form becos he is representing man.
3. He was glorified and given a name above every other name.

in short, there is a 'difference'.

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but the Pauline letters should not ever take on a greater importance than the Gospel
----------
What is the Gospel Vow? Strictly speaking, it is not Matthew Mark Luke John. A person reading those books cant really grasp the Gospel yet cos the mystery had not been fully revealed yet, exept after the cross where with the Holy Spirit's revelation, the Apostles began to see the whole picture by revelation from God and began to preach and teach. eg Paul received the revelation and commission to preach to the Gentiles ie us non Jews. So my point is that you wld get a better understanding of the gospel 'mystery' by reading the Epistles esp of Paul rather than say the parables Jesus told.

Click to expand...

I agree with you andrew. Nowhere in the bible does it say...these books are MORE important. You can find the message of Christ from Matthew thru Revelation.
How can one be edified with just those four books?
If I was to tell someone how to start reading the bible I would start them out reading the GOSPELS AND the Letters or the OT. To me the gospels are the onion and the rest of the NT peels away the layers of the onion!
Good post andrew~

GEL

Ummm....I think you agreed with Vow, GEL, not Andrew. Andrew said the Epistles were more important because they contain the message of the Risen Christ, wheras the Gospels contain the message of Christ before His Resurrection.

Andrew said, by starting out with a previous quote from Vow:

Well, Luther thought the Pauline letters were more important than the Gospel...(Vow)
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I'd have to agree with Luther.(Andrew)

Click to expand...

Vow Said:

The Pauline letters may be more relevant to the Church of today than Leviticus, true, but the Pauline letters should not ever take on a greater importance than the Gospel.

Click to expand...

Neal

Vow,
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u said: "The Gospels contain much, much more information than just 'parables.' They contain the actual, living, true Words of God."
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U seem to put the Gospels 'above' the Epistles becos they contains the "words in red" ie Jesus' own words. Some protestants "only read the red".

Actually it depends. If you regard the entire Bible as God breathed and Holy Spirit inspired (every letter, every punctuation) -- as most "Bible-believing churches" do -- then the Epistles are just as important, becos they are written by the Spirit of God too. That's the position my church holds, dont know abt yours.

but what i'm trying to say is that to me, if I want to know the mystery of Christ -- salvation to the Gentiles -- or if i wanted to understand better about the Gospel of salvation , then I wld get more info out of Paul's letters, since they contain the explanations, revelations. so in that sense, the Epistles are more 'relevant' or helpful to me.

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u said: "Protestants" believe something entirely different about Jesus after the Resurrection than "Catholics" do? Please provide references! All Christians believe in the same Christ! "
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lemme rephrase: yes all Christian believe in the same Jesus. But there are some Christians (protestants or catholics) who view Jesus in the same way b4 and after the cross. ie it is as if the cross did not accomplish anything.

eg:
Christ did not become exalted by his Father and sprinkle the blood and sit down at his Father's righhand until after the cross. You dont read abt him doing that in Matthew Mark or Luke.

Christ did not become High Priest over us priests or become our advocate at our Father's right hand until after the cross. Again u dont read abt this in Mat Mark or Luke.

I would say that all of scripture is EQUALLY important.