CHOSEN - Dead or Alive...?

FreeinChrist · May 16, 2010

MOD HAT

Reopening. Please stay on topic! A number of posts have been removed either because they were violations or responding to a post that was a violation.

sungaunga · May 16, 2010

Hammster said:
There is a distinction between election and salvation. We were elected before the foundation of the world. But that doesn't mean we were saved before the foundation of the world.

Yes, all of us were elect and unsaved at sometime. It isn't like saying im elect i don't need to get saved. The reality of election comes to the elect through the sanctifying work of the spirit. I was elect a loooong time even when I was alive and lost. Our salvation becomes reality only through the work of the spirit. What a marvelous thought.

Markea · May 17, 2010

sungaunga said:
I was elect a loooong time even when I was alive and lost.

When you say alive and lost, I think you mean when you were dead in trespasses and in sins.

You believe that God chose you when you were dead ?

Hammster · May 17, 2010

I think he means physically alive, yet still lost. IOW, he is differentiating between election and salvation. They aren't the same thing.

Rightglory · May 17, 2010

Hammster,

This was written to the Ephesian church. The above was written to the Corinthian church. And there are letters to the churches of Galatia, the church at Phillipi, the Colossian church, etc. Not once did Paul criticize them for not being in whatever he considered the One True Church. He just knew that they were are part of the body because they were elect.

why would he need to assume otherwise. They were all elect because they believed and were baptised into that Church. It is still the very same Church today. That Corinthian Church still exists, the Ephesian Church existed until 1820 when it was annihilited by the Turks in the Greek Civil War.

I could add the Church at Alexandria, At Antioch, at Jeruselem. They are all members of the body of Christ because they are the Body of Christ.

No distinction was ever made until the protestant Reformation when they changed the meaning of the Body of Christ. They created their own philosophical one, a mythical one that has no existance anywhere except in a theory.

all those Churches today are the Orthodox Church and always have been. It was not until the Bishop of Rome separated from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church when they took the name "Roman Catholic" to differentiate from the Original, which then took the name Orthodox.

A general reading of history will confirm that and a study of the theology of the Church will also confirm what I have been saying.

Scripture confirms both in how they were established and by whom.
It all hinges on the meaning of the Trinity. The Church is Trinitarian in that many become ONE.

sungaunga · May 17, 2010

Hammster said:
I think he means physically alive, yet still lost. IOW, he is differentiating between election and salvation. They aren't the same thing.

Thank you. I didn't think I was that unclear. But then again, whatever it takes to undermine my post right?

Markea · May 18, 2010

sungaunga said:
Thank you. I didn't think I was that unclear. But then again, whatever it takes to undermine my post right?

Then that's a yes, you believe that you were elected by God when you were dead ?

Hammster · May 18, 2010

Markea said:
Then that's a yes, you believe that you were elected by God when you were dead ?

Yes, G. That's when election happens.

Markea · May 18, 2010

Hammster said:
Yes, G. That's when election happens.

Where does the word of God teach that God chooses people when they're dead and lost in trespasses and in sins ?

Every scripture I have read teaches that we are chosen in Christ, and that would be when we are alive, not dead.

Hammster · May 18, 2010

Markea said:
Where does the word of God teach that God chooses people when they're dead and lost in trespasses and in sins ?

Every scripture I have read teaches that we are chosen in Christ, and that would be when we are alive, not dead.

It is in all of those verses before your favorite one. The ones before Eph 1:13.

Plus, Matt 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

What Jesus didn't say was that the kingdom was prepared for some obscure group, and that He hoped some would find their way. The group He prepared the kingdom for was/is specific.

Markea · May 18, 2010

Hammster said:
It is in all of those verses before your favorite one. The ones before Eph 1:13.

I agree, although they teach that we are chosen in Christ.

Plus, Matt 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

What Jesus didn't say was that the kingdom was prepared for some obscure group, and that He hoped some would find their way. The group He prepared the kingdom for was/is specific.

All kidding aside, I could not agree more, but this doesn't say anything about God choosing people when they were dead, is that what this means to you ?

Hammster · May 18, 2010

Markea said:
I agree, although they teach that we are chosen in Christ.

All kidding aside, I could not agree more, but this doesn't say anything about God choosing people when they were dead, is that what this means to you ?

You have to go back and see why were some sheep and some goats. Since it wasn't based on anything they did, then they were sheep and goats by nature. And thus, they were this way from the foundation. Jesus came for His sheep. His sheep hear His voice.

Markea · May 18, 2010

Hammster said:
You have to go back and see why were some sheep and some goats. Since it wasn't based on anything they did, then they were sheep and goats by nature. And thus, they were this way from the foundation. Jesus came for His sheep. His sheep hear His voice.

Ok then, if this is what you believe teaches that God chooses dead men over living men in Christ, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hammster · May 18, 2010

Markea said:
Ok then, if this is what you believe teaches that God chooses dead men over living men in Christ, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

We are dead. God makes us alive. He chose to do this before the foundation of the world.

Markea · May 18, 2010

Hammster said:
We are dead. God makes us alive. He chose to do this before the foundation of the world.

I know that's what you believe, I was asking for scriptural examples of God choosing people when they're dead rather than when they are alive in Christ.

Until you can provide sound scriptural examples of God choosing us when dead rather than alive in Christ, then we must agree to disagree.

Hammster · May 18, 2010

Markea said:
I know that's what you believe, I was asking for scriptural examples of God choosing people when they're dead rather than when they are alive in Christ.

Until you can provide sound scriptural examples of God choosing us when dead rather than alive in Christ, then we must agree to disagree.

Oh, I have. For the last year or so since we have been debating. But you refuse to acknowledge it. You come up with some scriptural sounding rejoinders. Or go to your favorite verse, Ephesians 1:13. And my favorite was when you wouldn't even engage in the Romans 8 argument. All you said was that it didn't say what I said it said. You never gave even a hint of an exegesis of the passage. So, I think that just giving Ephesian 1 for right now is enough.

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