Child abuse, and Hell

Flibbertigibbet · Sep 14, 2008

Rising Tree said:
You're willing to force on your children something you know could very well be a lie?

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't believe that it is a lie.

I am quite comfortable teaching my children about Christianity. Should they have doubts or not believe (as my eldest does not) I will not be the parent screaming at them about eternal torment in hell - they will have already learned what the Bible says and it is between them and God.

I will have done my part in making sure they are fully aware of ALL that the Bible says - including, to me, the most important part which is that we are to love each other, regardless of whether we are saved or not.

Yusuf Evans · Sep 15, 2008

Rising Tree said:
You mean, paradox. And stances on morality are filled with them, such as the fact that people who are anti-abortion tend to be softer on child abuse.

That isn't true at all. I believe those who committ child abuse, both menta and physical abuse should be punished severely as an example; I also believe the mothers who stand by and do nothing while their child is abused should be punished as harshly.

I'm vehemently against abortions and consider them evil; however, I do support a woman's right to choose. Huge difference between what you typed here.

wanderingone · Sep 15, 2008

Rising Tree said:
You're willing to force on your children something you know could very well be a lie?

If you believe it to be true it's not something you consider could be a lie.
If you share your beliefs with your children it's not forcing it.
While many people claim they will not teach their children any specific beliefs when it comes to faith that in itself is a teaching.

Risen Tree · Sep 15, 2008

Flibbertigibbet said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't believe that it is a lie.

I am quite comfortable teaching my children about Christianity. Should they have doubts or not believe (as my eldest does not) I will not be the parent screaming at them about eternal torment in hell - they will have already learned what the Bible says and it is between them and God.

I will have done my part in making sure they are fully aware of ALL that the Bible says - including, to me, the most important part which is that we are to love each other, regardless of whether we are saved or not.

Tone of voice doesn't really matter--teaching them that they're worthy of Hell is still teaching them that they're worthy of Hell.

Eazy E said:
That isn't true at all. I believe those who committ child abuse, both menta and physical abuse should be punished severely as an example; I also believe the mothers who stand by and do nothing while their child is abused should be punished as harshly.

I'm vehemently against abortions and consider them evil; however, I do support a woman's right to choose. Huge difference between what you typed here.

I hate to break this to you, but there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between anti-choice and pro-child-abuse. The same seems to run in reverse.

Again, it is a strange paradox that the fewer rights a person believes a fetus has, the more rights they believe a child has.

Yusuf Evans · Sep 15, 2008

Rising Tree said:
Again, it is a strange paradox that the fewer rights a person believes a fetus has, the more rights they believe a child has.

Are there studies showing this? I'm of the crowd that both should be equally protected, and that the destruction of either is equally disgusting.

Flibbertigibbet · Sep 15, 2008

Rising Tree said:
Tone of voice doesn't really matter--teaching them that they're worthy of Hell is still teaching them that they're worthy of Hell.

I hate to break this to you, but there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between anti-choice and pro-child-abuse. The same seems to run in reverse.

Again, it is a strange paradox that the fewer rights a person believes a fetus has, the more rights they believe a child has.

Ah, so you wish to clarify the original question to be - do you consider teaching Christianity to children to be child abuse? Fine. My answer is no.

Please provide some proof regarding your statements in paragraphs 2 & 3 above.

uberd00b · Sep 15, 2008

Holy Roller said:
By warning them of the danger of spending an eternity with the devil we are crushing their spirit. We're also raising spineless immoral sycophants.

Fixed!

StarCannon · Sep 15, 2008

do you consider teaching Christianity to children to be child abuse?

... maybe.

Flibbertigibbet · Sep 15, 2008

StarCannon said:
... maybe.

Well that's stating it unequivocally.

Would you care to elaborate on what circumstances would make it child abuse?

StarCannon · Sep 15, 2008

Well, I would say from a legal standpoint...

Coercive tactics -- hammering ideology into a child's head, using lies to facilitate fear, and using that fear to force belief... for example: beating the kid over the head with a bible if the kid is caught touching own genitals and yelling that he's going to hell if he doesn't beg forgiveness from god... and so on and so forth.

A rather overt example... something more subtle:

A parent who forces their belief onto their children through indoctrination -- snide comments, disrespect towards child's own opinions on god and the universe... so on and so forth.

Then again, I don't believe in teaching anyone christianity due the fact that's there's no benefit from using that program of belief.

Flibbertigibbet · Sep 15, 2008

StarCannon said:
Well, I would say from a legal standpoint...

Coercive tactics -- hammering ideology into a child's head, using lies to facilitate fear, and using that fear to force belief... for example: beating the kid over the head with a bible if the kid is caught touching own genitals and yelling that he's going to hell if he doesn't beg forgiveness from god... and so on and so forth.

A rather overt example... something more subtle:

A parent who forces their belief onto their children through indoctrination -- snide comments, disrespect towards child's own opinions on god and the universe... so on and so forth.

Then again, I don't believe in teaching anyone christianity due the fact that's there's no benefit from using that program of belief.

I felt exactly the same way at your age - and for 23 years thereafter. I don't believe in literally or figuratively beating anyone over the head with the Bible - I do believe that my kids should know what it says, for themselves.

My middle kids, at 12 & 14, are old enough to interpret for themselves. My oldest, at 24, doesn't care to read the Bible but does like to sit down and hear about it and ask questions. The youngest is 3, and we mostly talk about Power Rangers and Free Willy (guess who inherited the older kids videos?).

In thinking about conversations with my kids over the past year, I don't think that Hell as a place of torment has really been raised that much. I know that there are verses in the Bible that refer to it in that manner - but the most important part, to me, and what is usually discussed is that it means eternal separation from God.

lawtonfogle · Sep 16, 2008

Holy Roller said:
It's society abuse when we don't discipline our children and they grow up to be street thugs.
By warning them of the danger of spending an eternity with the devil we are saving their souls. We're also raising civilized adult human beings.

Humans who must be threatened with eternal damnation to be good... that is what I like about many of my friends, that isn't the reason they are good.

Risen Tree · Sep 16, 2008

Eazy E said:
Rising Tree said:

Tone of voice doesn't really matter--teaching them that they're worthy of Hell is still teaching them that they're worthy of Hell.

Click to expand...

I hate to break this to you, but there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between anti-choice and pro-child-abuse. The same seems to run in reverse.

Again, it is a strange paradox that the fewer rights a person believes a fetus has, the more rights they believe a child has.

Are there studies showing this? I'm of the crowd that both should be equally protected, and that the destruction of either is equally disgusting.

Are you kidding me? Have you not read any of these threads around here?

Flibbertigibbet said:
Ah, so you wish to clarify the original question to be - do you consider teaching Christianity to children to be child abuse? Fine. My answer is no.

Please provide some proof regarding your statements in paragraphs 2 & 3 above.

It depends on whether or not your children are *required* to accept Christianity in order to receive further benefits from you--more love, attention, gifts, privileges, etc. If they are, that's child abuse, no matter what views that they are being blackmailed into accepting.

Flibbertigibbet · Sep 16, 2008

Rising Tree said:
It depends on whether or not your children are *required* to accept Christianity in order to receive further benefits from you--more love, attention, gifts, privileges, etc. If they are, that's child abuse, no matter what views that they are being blackmailed into accepting.

What an absolutely bizarre statement you have made to me - who has been a parent 23 years longer than I've been a Christian. My love, etc. is in no way conditioned upon ANYTHING to do with my children's relationship with God. I didn't even BELIEVE in God when I had these kids.

De you REALLY think that because I have come to a belief in Christ that I became militantly adamant that ALL must AGREE with ME or ELSE?? "Okay kids - THINGS ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT AROUND HERE - if you don't have the exact same opinion as I do, you will be ignored, sent to your room, deprived of hugs, tickles and zurblurts, and you can't watch tv until you sing "Jesus Loves Me" and really mean it!! And if you don't, you'll burn in hell, but first you'll get the heck out of my house!!!!"

Is that what you think it means to be a Christian parent? Believe or else?
My children would be wondering what planet you are from.

Either you have just had the misfortune to meet people I myself would rather avoid, or you need to get out and meet some real-life Christian parents and see how it works.

Sheesh - I feel sorry for you. I'm not being patronizing either - I really mean it. Maybe you should come visit us.

MarcusHill · Sep 17, 2008

A lot of parents will, in the few couple of months, be reminding their children that if they fail to behave, Santa won't be bringing them any presents. Clearly, they're using a nonexistent entity to encourage good behaviour. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, since they're essentially promising a reward for good behaviour and reminding kids that it will be withheld if they're naughty.

Would it be substantially worse if they went on to say that Santa would, in fact, take a cheesegrater to their faces if they were naughty? I think it would, and that's the difference between encouraging kids to to be good (possibly with the reward of "heaven") and threatening them with damnation.

Yusuf Evans · Sep 17, 2008

Rising Tree said:
Are you kidding me? Have you not read any of these threads around here?

Opinion pieces are not a valid source, IMHO.

Risen Tree · Sep 17, 2008

Eazy E said:
Opinion pieces are not a valid source, IMHO.

When did indirect reference to existing threads equate to "opinion pieces?"

Child abuse, and Hell

Should it be considered child abuse to tell a child that he/she may be going to Hell?

Yes, and it should legally be considered child abuse.

Yes, but it should not be a crime.

No. This would infringe on parents' rights.

Flibbertigibbet

Guest

Well-Known Member

I'm not lost I'm just wandering

previously Rising Tree

Well-Known Member

Flibbertigibbet

Guest

The Emperor has no clothes.

Warmaster

Flibbertigibbet

Guest

Warmaster

Flibbertigibbet

Guest

My solace my terror, my terror my solace.

previously Rising Tree

Flibbertigibbet

Guest

Educator and learner

Well-Known Member

previously Rising Tree

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency