Chief end of man

bling said:

The Bible does not say man’s nature changed from the nature Adam and Eve had and as our very best all human representatives they sinned with the nature they had. We did gain knowledge of Good and evil, but knowledge itself is not bad, but in this case gave us toms of ways to sin in contrast to Adam and Eve having only one way to sin and sinning.

All humans start out innocent because they did not sin yet. If they do not die early on, they will eventually sin.

They Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a fall.

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Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

ViaCrucis said:

A couple questions: How does that knowledge lead to sin? How is that knowledge acquired? Are we born with it, or do we acquire it later as we age?

-CryptoLutheran

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We have the knowledge of good and evil, law written on our hearts (conscience). It came from the tree of knowledge past down to us from Adam and Eve. The information is available to us, but it is just information, so experiences through our life help us apply that information to ourselves. We are burden by our conscience (at least for a while, until we harden our hearts) by doing stuff that hurts others. The only true relieve from this burden comes with accepting God's forgiveness.

ViaCrucis said:

If you injure me, and I forgive you, are you therefore righteous? If I forgive you, but you still continue in the same way of action, are you righteous?

God forgives us, but that isn't what makes us righteous before Him. In the same way that if I forgive you, that doesn't mean you are righteous in relation to me.

Forgiveness demonstrates kindness, compassion, and grace on the part of the one that forgives, it does not demonstrate righteousness on the part of the one that is forgiven.

-CryptoLutheran

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I like the question and it is like the question on the hearts of the disciples in Matt. 18.
I gave Hammster a very short answer and did not go into the details.
God is forgiving all of us all the time, but we have to humbly accept that forgiveness a pure undeserved charity to "Love Much" (Christ teaching in Luke 7, he who is forgiven much, Loves much.)
If you "Love" to the degree you were forgiven you will not repeat the offence, but if you repeat the offence, then you did not humbly accept the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.
Forgiveness is a two-sided transaction and not just one-sided, God is forgiving (He does his part perfectly, but if man does not humbly accept that forgiving as pure undeserved charity, then forgiveness did not take place and the debt is still owed).
If you would like to go over Matt. 18, I would be happy to do that.

bbbbbbb said:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

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Please notice Paul did not say at the end of the sentence: Because Adam and Eve sinned. It would appear Paul is only addressing sinners with "all". Did you personally sin at conception because Adam and Eve sinned?
Yes, death came into the world because of people sinning, but death helps willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and is the way for good people to enter their rest. Death is needed, because of sin in this world, but unfortunately sin is also needed to help the person fulfill their earthly objective.

Hammster said:

That doesn’t make one righteous.

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Would you please define "righteous" with scripture?
Having and using Godly type Love makes us righteous like God who is Love and accepting God's forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt (caused by our sinning) will automatically produce an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) Luke 7.

God is forgiving all of us all the time, but we have to humbly accept God's forgiving as pure undeserved charity to "Love Much" (Christ teaching in Luke 7, he who is forgiven much, Loves much.)
If you "Love" to the degree you were forgiven you will not repeat the offence, but if you repeat the offence, then you did not humbly accept the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.
Forgiveness is a two-sided transaction and not just one-sided, God is forgiving (He does his part perfectly), but if man does not humbly accept that forgiving as pure undeserved charity, then forgiveness did not take place and the debt is still owed.
If you would like to go over Matt. 18, I would be happy to do that.

bling said:

Please notice Paul did not say at the end of the sentence: Because Adam and Eve sinned. It would appear Paul is only addressing sinners with "all". Did you personally sin at conception because Adam and Eve sinned?
Yes, death came into the world because of people sinning, but death helps willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and is the way for good people to enter their rest. Death is needed, because of sin in this world, but unfortunately sin is also needed to help the person fulfill their earthly objective.

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Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

You can well argue that David was speaking about himself and his mother only and that everyone else was brought forth in innocence and in innocence they were conceived. That, of course, makes David the illegitimate child of an adulterous woman. Do you believe that?

Please provide biblical support which unambigously states that people are brought forth in innocence and are conceived in innocence. Thank you.

bling said:

We have the knowledge of good and evil, law written on our hearts (conscience). It came from the tree of knowledge past down to us from Adam and Eve. The information is available to us, but it is just information, so experiences through our life help us apply that information to ourselves. We are burden by our conscience (at least for a while, until we harden our hearts) by doing stuff that hurts others. The only true relieve from this burden comes with accepting God's forgiveness.

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What stops a person from, at least hypothetically, always making the right decisions and living a holy life free from sin?

Is it at least possible, in the hypothetical, for a person to live a holy and righteous life free from sin?

-CryptoLutheran

bling said:

I like the question and it is like the question on the hearts of the disciples in Matt. 18.
I gave Hammster a very short answer and did not go into the details.
God is forgiving all of us all the time, but we have to humbly accept that forgiveness a pure undeserved charity to "Love Much" (Christ teaching in Luke 7, he who is forgiven much, Loves much.)
If you "Love" to the degree you were forgiven you will not repeat the offence, but if you repeat the offence, then you did not humbly accept the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.
Forgiveness is a two-sided transaction and not just one-sided, God is forgiving (He does his part perfectly, but if man does not humbly accept that forgiving as pure undeserved charity, then forgiveness did not take place and the debt is still owed).
If you would like to go over Matt. 18, I would be happy to do that.

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Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you: Are you saying that the righteousness we have before God is our own righteousness which we live through our love before God in response to His forgiveness?

So we are righteous before God based on our actions?

-CryptoLutheran

Boy, silly disagreements people have when left with the "Bible Alone"

Hammster said:

This made me laugh. You want me to define righteous from scripture, and yet you constantly use “Godly type love”, as if it’s a biblical statement.

And then make up this strange theology.


I’m not even sure where to go from here.

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I use Godly type Love, to describe the "Love" of God. "Love" in English has mean different meanings, and I want to be specific about the meaning of Love I am using.
Godly type Love is just that Godly type Love. It is who God and Jesus are. It includes all Jesus did and said, but you can also use 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.
You said Forgiveness does not result in righteousness, but I showed with scripture: when we humbly accept pure undeserved being forgiven by God of a huge debt we automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Luke 7 and Matt. 18). That Love makes us righteous but starts with God's offer of forgiveness.

bbbbbbb said:

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

You can well argue that David was speaking about himself and his mother only and that everyone else was brought forth in innocence and in innocence they were conceived. That, of course, makes David the illegitimate child of an adulterous woman. Do you believe that?

Please provide biblical support which unambigously states that people are brought forth in innocence and are conceived in innocence. Thank you.

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I have taken a lot of my research on this subject from Jewish Scholars (Some being Messianic Scholars) and especially some individuals I corresponded with in Jerusalem who had access to untranslated Hebrew writings.

The Jews are mostly wanting to understand why Jesse and David’s brothers treated him so poorly.

Psalms 51:5 is a problem translation for Jews and Christians, so this one verse takes a lot of explaining, but it also has to be consistent with all these verse in Psalms at least.

It has been decades since I did my study and I have many pages of notes.

This could all be a very poetic hyperbole David is using and he should be allowed some poetic license.

We have similar verses:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.



I argue that a child is Innocent:

Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30

Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4

The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18

God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15

"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)

Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"

Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17)

Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11 "Once alive" "sin killed me"

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.



Looking Deeper into Psalms 51:5

This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.

The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act.

Read some of the English translation Psalms 51:5

KJV Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

YLT Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

WEB Behold, I was born in iniquity. My mother conceived me in sin

RSV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Granted some translators have a problem with the sin being David’s mother’s problem and will point to verses like these:

In PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's positive relationship with the Lord.

Psalm 86:16 Turn to me and have mercy on me; show your strength in behalf of your servant; save me, because I serve you just as my mother did. She sounds righteous to me.

Thus, they majorly change the translation to be David’s sin, But are these translations the result of preconceived ideas?

The wording seems to be saying: the sin is the mothers at conception.

What do we know which could show it to be David’s mother and a problem?

David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail)…..:

1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”

Again the translators do not like the idea of these sisters only being David’s so the change the wording and meaning, but the better translations is:

KJV Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.

Why might these two only be David’s sisters and not Jesse’s daughters: 2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man’s son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab’s mother.”

Nahash is king of the Ammonites.

1 Chronicles 19:2 David thought, “I will show kindness to Hanun son of Nahash, because his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent a delegation to express his sympathy to Hanun concerning his father. When David’s envoys came to Hanun in the land of the Ammonites to express sympathy to him,

Why did Nahash show kindness to David?

David’s Jewish mother seems to have been previously married to Nahash the Ammonite and later was the second wife of Jesse, this was not a “sin” most likely but later could have been perceived as a sin, thus Jesse not counting David as one of his sons and all his brothers treating him badly.

A lot more can be said, but it was not David being conceived a sinner, but his mother conceiving him could be perceived as a sin.

Now we can go further into scripture showing how David was treated and persecuted as an outsider by his family and loved only by his mother.

Looking at David’s Mother

Exodus 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

Matthew 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse

Torah specifically forbids an Israelite to marry a Moabite convert, since this is the nation that cruelly refused the Jewish people passage through their land, or food and drink to purchase, when they wandered in the desert after being freed from Egypt.

It is an interesting study, but there is no proof text scripture I can point to. I am convinced it was the wrongfully perceived sin of David’s mother’s conception.

Hammster said:

I see. So accepting forgiveness makes us good enough?

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Understanding we are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt and humbly accepting God forgiving us as, pure undeserved charity does provide us with this unbelievable Love (Luke 7), but also as Christians we are gifted with the indwelling Holy Spirit, so all that makes us righteous.

concretecamper said:

Boy, silly disagreements people have when left with the "Bible Alone"

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The indwelling Holy Spirit knows the answer.

bling said:

The indwelling Holy Spirit knows the answer.

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The indwelling of the HS in you or the indwelling of the HS in others on this thread who disagree with you?

Hammster said:

That’s merit. You did something good and get rewarded.

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You do nothing worthy, righteous, glorious, and merit worthy, by being willing for selfish (thus a sinful reason) to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from you enemy (God). What have we done to be forgiven? It would be macho to take the punishment you fully deserve and not further pester the God you have severely offended.