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hmmmmmm offensive and illegal you say????? then why aren't the people who say these public prayers such as (in my favorite sport) nascar racing ever arrested after saying a prayer for safekeeping over the drivers?La Bonita Zorilla said:The problem is two-part: sectarian prayer at public events such as ending a prayer with "in Jesus' name we pray, Amen" is offensive and illegal. And inoffensive generalized prayers are not that easy to come by; people don't know them or how to write them, though, for example, the Masonic Lodges have several they use in meetings or ceremonies which pass the test. It's just in places like those I mentioned (Santa Fe, Texas; Tupelo, Mississippi) this has become an instrument of bullying and tyranny of the majority-definitely not what God intended for us in our prayer life.
I'd like to see documentation of such a thing. It sounds like a delusion.Br. Max said:rotfl! there is no bullying by the majority. It's the majority who are being bullied.
Isn't that kind of like saying 'because we have cheesecake, we have strawberries'?REMEMBER please that it is only BECAUSE we are a Christian nation that we HAVE religious diversity.
Basically true, though I'm not sure a Buddhist state exists-Perhaps Tibet, where if the Chinese get out the Dalai Lama would become a theocratic monarch, which is why the 'free Tibet" movement never impressed me. Or possibly Myanmar (Burma), but the state religion there is more Marxist than anything else.. Thailand? well, perhaps, but only in the same sense England is an Anglican country, what with their English-style constitutional monarchy and the saxaphone-playing King and his movie-directing son... What else, the Himilayan kingdom of Nepal, as well as the mountain principalities of Bhutan and Mustang...but people are so poor there the amount of freedom they have is hardly relevant...Still your point is generally valid.LOOK if you will at any Islamic, buddist, or even Jewish country in the world and you will see freedoms limited. Look at any communist state and things are even WORSE!
OH wait so poor people don't diserve to be free?the Himilayan kingdom of Nepal, as well as the mountain principalities of Bhutan and Mustang...but people are so poor there the amount of freedom they have is hardly relevant...
Good point.Br. Max said:My favorite system of Government is the American - PRE-WWII. We had Statesmen back then. I can't think of a single Statesman in the world today. PLENTY of politicians, no statemen.
Tibet, under the Chinese system has elections for the first time its entire history, has economic growth, freedom of religion and even a growing population. It's looking great there. The tyrannical rule of the Dalai Lama's is over.La Bonita Zorilla said:Basically true, though I'm not sure a Buddhist state exists-Perhaps Tibet, where if the Chinese get out the Dalai Lama would become a theocratic monarch, which is why the 'free Tibet" movement never impressed me.
Myanmar is miles from Marxism. It's a military oligarchy of the totalitarian slant, with a marketised economy.Or possibly Myanmar (Burma), but the state religion there is more Marxist than anything else..
That statement would ring true in accordance with market capitalism. Poor people in such a system only have formal freedom, not actual, material freedom. In other words, it's freedom on paper but if you don't have the cash to pay for it you cannot have an equal freedom with the rich.Br. Max said:OH wait so poor people don't diserve to be free?
This is the Santa Fe case. In this case it was the right thing to do given the history of violence against non-fundamentalist students there.Br. Max said:In May 1995, Samuel Kent, US district judge for the southern district of Texas decreed that any student uttering the word Jesus at a graduation ceremony would be arrested and incarcerated for 6 months.
Threatened to arrest? I'd need more details to form an opinion. If it was a Jack Chick tract, though, I sure wouldn't want him giving my kid that filth.In Connecticut, a law enforcement officer threatened to arrest a man and charge him with corrupting the morals of a minor if it could be proved that the man gave the student a religious tract.
I had mine, but, I taught at a state university and in higher education academic freedom is more of a given. Seems like overkill. I believe President Clinton and Speaker Gingrich passed a bill to overturn some of these extreme judgements like this, though.Teachers are not allowed to have bibles on School property for fear that they might read to the students from them. Roberts v Madigan (10th circuit 1990)
More overkill, but why not follow Christ's recommendation in Matthew 6 anyway?If a student prays over his lunch it is unconstitutional for him to pray out loud _ reed v Van Hoven 1965
I've heard of this, but would like more details before stating an opinion. In a criminal trial the defense must be given leeway. To err on the side of caution in such a case would be good.because a prosecuting attorney mentioned 7 words from the bible a jury sentence was overeturned in the case of a man who clubbed a 71_year_old woman to death (commonwealth v chambers 1991)
They probably would.in Florida a judge ordered the courthouse copy of the 10 commandments covered because the jurors might see it and be prejudiced against the defendant if the read THOU SHALT NOT KILL. - State of Fla v Broxson 1992)
You mean rescinded? Probably appropriate. Why should the state pay for clerical education in any case?recent cases:
Locke v. Davey:
A Washington State student who was awarded a state scholarship, had that scholarship resided when he decided to go to a Christian college and major in theology.
And the result was?U.S. District Court, Topeka, KS
The ACLU sued the Shawnee County, Kansas treasurer for displaying the national motto, "In God We Trust" in the public area of the Treasurer's office.
What was on the bricks?CUPO and Sarastano v. City of Newburyport, Massachusetts
U.S. District Court, Boston
The Mayor of Newburyport said the messages on commemorative bricks placed in a city park were "religious" and needed to be removed because some persons in the community were "offended" by them. The bricks were removed by the city in late September 2000.
This is the case I'm most familiar with. The Court did the right thing.Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe
U.S. Supreme Court - 2000
the Supreme Court struck down a school board policy which allowed for student messages, including invocations, before football games. The Court held that the policy of allowing such invocations constituted an impermissible government endorsement of religion in violation of the Establishment Clause.
So this was an administrative procedure and not a lawsuit? Would need more details.Knight v. Dept. of Public Health
Court of Appeals, Second Circuit
A state_employed nurse was disciplined for sharing her faith with an AIDS patient and his partner.
Doesn't matter. Some are ridiculous, and some, like the Santa Fe cases are clear-cut instances of bad behavior on the part of those pushing religion in the schools. Like everything else it's a mixed result. But except for the teacher and Bible situation (which seems more authoritarian nonsense than anything else) it's hardly persecution.Do you need more?
NASCAR's a private venue; a school football game is a public venue.kimber1 said:hmmmmmm offensive and illegal you say????? then why aren't the people who say these public prayers such as (in my favorite sport) nascar racing ever arrested after saying a prayer for safekeeping over the drivers?
Legislatures often are exempt from constitutional requirements affecting other government regulations, but, if you want the short answer, politics.JOYfulbeliever said:And why is it that our senators and state representatives pray before every meeting of Congress?
To whom is this directed?Br. Max said:I'm sorry if you find Christianity offensive. Perhaps you would like to relocate to Saudi Arabia. I hear they are very tollerant of religious diversity there.
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