Chatting about the rules

In reading all this, what came to mind was this:

Jesus was loving, but He was also uncompromising with the truth.

If we are lovingly speaking the truth, and if people can't handle it, that is their problem, not ours.

The key is to do it in a loving fashion.

In XC,

Maureen

Nickolai said:

And let me note that I don't think what the willard preacher is doing is complety wrong. I have met plenty of people he has converted. I just sometimes question how many people his very direct attitude has turn away from Orthodoxy.

In Christ,
Reader Nikolai

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St. Paul also angered a lot of folks when he preached. He was beaten, imprisoned, and spat upon. Many responded to his call and accepted baptism. However, many others refused to listen. Nevertheless, the seeds of faith that he sowed could have blossomed much later when people had life changing events, like the death of a loved one. At those times, people can turn toward God, and remember the saving words which were preached with more clarity.

Many times we just don't see the instant results. We have to be patient and let the seed of faith grow.

Father Peter Gillquist has spoken at many advertised evangelical events held by Orthodox missions and missionary outreaches. Sometimes people are ready to listen. Othertimes, they walk away and think that we are a bunch of weirdos. These people seem to walk away disinterested, hurt, and angry. Yet in their pain, some of them meditate and pray for guidance. Some of those angry ones have called Father Peter maybe a year or two later on to set up a private conference with him. Some of these people are now Orthodox Priests who have brought their congregations with them into Orthodoxy.

Oftentimes, when people are hurt and angry, it means that something said (or Someone) has affected them and upset their entire world view. Thus, they appear very defensive or even rude. Father Peter said that it is the Holy Spirit working within them to convict them of sin and error. A humble Priest can help them to see their error and repent.



If today you hear the voice of the Lord, harden not your hearts.

This discussion reminds me of the below parable:

“Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Mark 4:3-9 (New King James Version)

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We are the sowers, all we can do is plant the seed. What happens after that is in God's hands.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Thank You Aria,

I feel much the same way.

I'm sorry I'm hurting others feelings but at the same time... I can't stop.

Forgive me....

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People are different and have different purposes. Some of us are brooms for cleaning up, some are tools for fixing things and some are, well, like you.

Here ya go...



Be the best darned club you can be, man.



You know I'm just kidding. Love ya man, don't change.

I'm sorry I'm hurting others feelings but at the same time... I can't stop.

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Would it be possible to maybe go a little easy tho? There are some even here who are not even catechumens much less baptized. It is much like having salt ground into an open wound for me to read this. I am painfully aware that I am not yet even at the first stage yet and I do not need forceful reminders (over and over....)
Maybe you could have a small amount of compassion for those of us who are trying to become Christians and who want nothing more than to be joined with the church.
I really do not need any more reminders.

Aria said:

St. Paul also angered a lot of folks when he preached. He was beaten, imprisoned, and spat upon. Many responded to his call and accepted baptism. However, many others refused to listen. Nevertheless, the seeds of faith that he sowed could have blossomed much later when people had life changing events, like the death of a loved one. At those times, people can turn toward God, and remember the saving words which were preached with more clarity.

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We should aslo remember however, that St. Paul didn't do "street preaching" unless he was asked to. He did much of his preaching in set places at set time, like in the jewish synagouges, until the Christians were kicked out. I have yet to see evidence that he would just stand in a random place and start preaching.

Nickolai said:

We should aslo remember however, that St. Paul didn't do "street preaching" unless he was asked to. He did much of his preaching in set places at set time, like in the jewish synagouges, until the Christians were kicked out. I have yet to see evidence that he would just stand in a random place and start preaching.

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Regardless, you said yourself that you know many he has converted. His fruit speaks for itself.

His message gets many people thinking, at least. A lot of what he talks about is challenging the ideas that have been pounded into our head from day one, without us realizing it. I do think there are downsides to his approach, as well--women are definitely less attracted to talking to him, and to the untrained ear, one could think he was sexist or even hated women. Most of the things he says that are shocking are fully intended to be so--it gets people's attention. I've discussed all of this with him, and while I dont agree with everything he says, he is not trying to reach everyone; he can't, people are too different, and he is as he is. For the population that hangs around to talk, though, there are many who find their assumptions challenged and are strengthened in their faith or begin questioning what they had believed.

If anyone wants to critique more directly, I suggest you visit and observe for several days at least. Without first hand observation and understanding the process that happens out at Willard, any opinion will be unfounded and rootless, and thereby worthless.

I am all for "speaking the Truth in love" (Eph. 4:15) But I think there is a real danger that we must avoid. It is really easy to get annoyed or angery at other people when they don't agree with you. And if you do not have real love for the person you are witnessing to how does that aid your salvation? Could it not even hurt your progress in the Spiritual life? We are charged with acquiring the Spirit of peace and growing in love, so that we can imitate God in the world. All of that can be lost if we get caught up in clever arguments.

Besides that, it is the Spirit that gives people eyes to see and ears to hear. So we can be very "right" and historically accurate but if the Spirit is not working in that person, no amount of rightness will convince them. And if that person perceived no love toward them on our part, well then we've become the quintessential clanging cymbal.

I don’t see a whole lotta love in GT.

M.

...

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. --Romans 9

This is the kind of love that accompanied Pauls strident preaching to those who should be able to see the Truth. Do we even approach this kind of love toward the heterodox the people from which many of us come and who we could say should see the truth?

M.

As an inquirer in TAW (and a resident of GT a lot of the time), I've experienced both type of approaches on multiple occasions.

Jesus called James and John the "Sons of Thunder." Here's how they wanted to deal with people who would not receive Christ:

"And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village." (Luke 9:54-56, NKJV)

I think I can tell when someone is trying to tell me the truth because they care about my salvation, and want to help bring me closer to God. I also think I can tell when someone is pressing a point for other reasons.

One type persuades. The other "calls down fire from heaven." Persuasion is what works for me. The other way usually mostly makes me feel beat up.

There is a definitely place for directness and truth-telling, but to be effective, it must be accompanied by love and concern for the individual. Otherwise, the message is at odds with the delivery.

"By long forbearance a ruler is persuaded, And a gentle tongue breaks a bone. " (Proverbs 25:15, NKJV)

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

contriteHeart said:

As an inquirer in TAW (and a resident of GT a lot of the time), I've experienced both type of approaches on multiple occasions.

Jesus called James and John the "Sons of Thunder." Here's how they wanted to deal with people who would not receive Christ:

"And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village." (Luke 9:54-56, NKJV)

I think I can tell when someone is trying to tell me the truth because they care about my salvation, and want to help bring me closer to God. I also think I can tell when someone is pressing a point for other reasons.

One type persuades. The other "calls down fire from heaven." Persuasion is what works for me. The other way usually mostly makes me feel beat up.

There is a definitely place for directness and truth-telling, but to be effective, it must be accompanied by love and concern for the individual. Otherwise, the message is at odds with the delivery.

"By long forbearance a ruler is persuaded, And a gentle tongue breaks a bone. " (Proverbs 25:15, NKJV)

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

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I want to let you know that many times I enjoy and learn from your postings.

Some times though maybe it's me taking things the wrong way or what ever but you do come off sort of strong.

Like for instance the thread you mentioned being closed, I am at the point in my faith that I'm unsure if the wine is to be blood physicly or spiritualy. But I'm wanting to learn, I want to learn every thing about our Father and what I'm to do in this life. I seem to be pulled in the direction of the EO but am undecided on that as of yet.
To put it this way I feel very drawn to learn about the EO teachings and thoughts. I tend to agree with most of what I've seen so far, there are a few things I'm not sure about yet but some day hope to understand the Eucharist is one of those. I do take the communion seriously though.

It might not be the way you are toward ppl that causes the conflict it might be that the enemy is just making us feel attacked because we are wrong.

But brother do not think that because some times I disagree with you or what ever that I hate you and do not wish to be considered your brother, in fact it's quite the oposite. I understand things (literal Gen.) that some would say they are embarrased by me for believing such, I've seen it stated on here many times that one Christian is embarrassed by the YECs .

As I said for the most part I enjoy your posts and I'm here to learn. But some times it hurts deeply to think ones walk with the Lord might not be the walk that is fully expected. I think our pride steps in the way and we do not like to admit we are wrong it's realy sad when we would rather cast our family in Christ off before honestly looking and trying to understand what our brothers/sisters are saying and this happens alot here.


So if the Lord is commanding you to speak to ppl the way you are keep it up, if we take it the wrong way there is a chance it might also be us who are reading your posts.

God bless!
Raist

forgivensinner001 said:

People are different and have different purposes. Some of us are brooms for cleaning up, some are tools for fixing things and some are, well, like you.

Here ya go...

Be the best darned club you can be, man.



You know I'm just kidding. Love ya man, don't change.

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LOL I have to say this post cracks me up. I'm just glad I didn't have a mouth full of Dr. Pepper when I came across this one
Thanks for the laugh.

God bless!
Raist

David65 said:

Reader Nickolai,

I cannot remain hetrodox. The Apostolic Succession thread, in which you and Philip in patricular were were defending the faith, was my first exposure to the Orthodox Church. Your simple and gentle statements of the truth compelled me to discover where your confidence came from.

I really don't know how to thank you.

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awesome!