• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The statement was made that Charles G. Finney was a Calvinist all his life.

Would you agree with that statement?

Yes or No?

Explain why?

I have been accused of not understanding Finney's theology, even though he denied the atonement, total depravity, regeneration, and adopted the "by hook or crook" method:

the results justify my methods."

Perry Miller,The Life of the Mind in America (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1965), p. 27.

I agree with Don Stricklands assessment of Finney:

Finney became an enigmatic blend of Pelagianism, pragmatism and mystical Pietism, packaged in biblical garb.

Charles Finney's Assault Upon Biblical Preaching

Link

And yet, I am wrong and don't understand Finney.

Please vote and give me your opinions also.

Thanks.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 

bradfordl

Veteran
Mar 20, 2006
1,510
181
✟25,108.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
And yet, I am wrong and don't understand Finney.
If you'd read much Finney, you'd take that as a compliment. I did long ago, and the mental gymnastics used to do somersaults around the scriptures to try and force his views into them were excruciating. Finney was ordained a Presbyterian minister, then later said that if he'd actually read the Westminster Standards to which he was vowing subscription, he'd never had done so. That says enough about Finney that anyone needs to know. Christians don't vow faithfulness to things they don't even understand, much less bothered to read.

Finney was by no stretch a calvinist, nor even a classical arminian, but more of a full-fledged pelagian. I wouldn't be able to take seriously anybody who thought Finney was anywhere near the truth, nor be concerned about their opinions of my view on the man. He was a flaming heretic who was instrumental in doing great harm to the Church.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
According to the Merrian-Webster dictionary, one definition for "idiot" is uneducated and unlearned.

Charles Finney was an idiot.

You would not believe how much of a beating I have gone through because of that.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟41,809.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Before and after his conversion, Finney rejected the Calvinist doctrine of a salvation provided only to the elect. He believed that God offered Himself to everyone and, most importantly, that one could be saved only through an active acceptance of God's invitation to grace. The sinner chooses to sin just as the penitent chooses to repent.

Finney couldn't make it through Dordt without at least five objections. He's no Calvinist. Never was.

From the-highway.com:
Preceding him are the evangelical and Reformed doctrines of the faith embodied in the Canons of Dort, the Thirty-Nine Articles, the Westminster Confession and the other, great credal confessions. These Finney rejected. For him they misunderstood Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

I have some people in the Baptist room who would argue with you.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟41,809.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Being a Presbyterian, I'm not a Baptist. I have good friends who are either, but I'm not invited to speak at Baptist forum. If you'd like I can poke my nose in and see what I can say to the veracity of certain statements.

But I'm not a Baptist.

But then, Finney was ordained as a Presbyterian. He baptized infants.

Finney generated a massive controversy in the PCUSA because he essentially denied the doctrines he explicitly stated he embraced -- and then wouldn't step down as a Presbyterian minister. That fact is amazingly well-documented.

Just withhold judgment for the moment whether Phil Johnson's conclusions are wrong. Read the citations from Finney's memoirs and actions himself.
Finney ... obtained his license to preach as a Presbyterian minister by professing adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith. But he later admitted that he was almost totally ignorant of what the document taught. Here, in Finney's own words, is a description of what occurred when he went before the council whose task it was to determine if he was spiritually qualified and doctrinally sound:
Unexpectedly to myself they asked me if I received the Confession of faith of the Presbyterian church. I had not examined it;—that is, the large work, containing the Catechisms and Presbyterian Confession. This had made no part of my study. I replied that I received it for substance of doctrine, so far as I understood it. But I spoke in a way that plainly implied, I think, that I did not pretend to know much about it. However, I answered honestly, as I understood it at the time [Charles Finney, The Memoirs of Charles Finney: The Complete Restored Text (Grand Rapids: Academie, 1989), 53-54].
Despite his Clintonesque insistence that he "answered honestly," it is clear that Finney deliberately misled his examiners. (His ability to parse legal terms would have served him well had he been a politician in the late Twentieth Century. But he betrays an appalling brashness for a clergyman in his own era.) Rather than plainly admitting he was utterly ignorant of his denomination's doctrinal standards, he says he "spoke in a way" that implied ("I think") that he did not know "much" about those documents. The truth is that he had never even examined the Confession of Faith and knew nothing at all about it. He was woefully unprepared for ordination, and he had no business seeking a license to preach under the presbytery's auspices. "I was not aware that the rules of the presbytery required them to ask a candidate if he accepted the Presbyterian Confession of faith," Finney wrote. "Hence I had never read it" [Memoirs, 60.] So when he told his ordination council that he received the Confession "for substance of doctrine," nothing could have been further from the truth! Nonetheless, the council naively (and all too willingly) took Finney at his word and licensed him to preach.
Finney's credibility is further marred by the fact that when he later read the Westminster Standards and realized he disagreed on almost every crucial point, he did not resign the commission he had received under false pretenses. Instead, he accepted the platform he had duped those men into giving him—then used it for the rest of his life to attack their doctrinal convictions. "As soon as I learned what were the unambiguous teachings of the Confession of faith upon these points, I did not hesitate at all on all suitable occasions to declare my dissent from them," he boasted. "I repudiated and exposed them. Wherever I found that any class of persons were hidden behind these dogmas, I did not hesitate to demolish them, to the best of my ability" [Memoirs, 60]. The fact that Finney had obtained his own preaching credentials by professing adherence to the Confession did not faze him at all. "When I came to read the Confession of faith, and saw the passages that were quoted to sustain these peculiar positions, I was absolutely ashamed of it," he frankly stated. "I could not feel any respect for a document that would undertake to impose on mankind such dogmas as those" [Memoirs, 61].
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

edie19

Legend
Site Supporter
Sep 5, 2005
20,810
10,316
69
NW Ohio (almost Michigan)
Visit site
✟136,291.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
one thing I do respect Charles Finney for - he was an early president (I believe the 2nd) of Oberlin College - which was founded with an abolitionist statement in their charter, they were the first college to admit women and blacks along with white males. (my great aunt Ruth graduated from Oberlin ~1910, a time when very few women went to college, much less graduated)
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

Yes, it is true that he was one of the early proponents of abolition, but, how amny rights make up for one wrong?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
doesn't make up for the poor theology he taught - just saying, he did have one admirable quality

Oh I agree sister, you have to give credit wher credit is due.

I was casatgated badly in another area because I said the man was an idiot and because of his tactics it makes one wonder about his converts. One member said he was disappointed in me because of that.


But as I see it, the means does not justify the end. Least wise in this instance.

Let me give you an example.

At one of the deacons meetings, we were discussing whom we would have as our fall revival evangelist. Many names were thrown into the bucket, but we ultimately decided on one.

The invitation was sent and accepted.

We anxiously awaited revival to start. During the revival, at the end of one of the messages, the evangelist asked the deacons to come forward whenever somebody felt led to come to the altar. That way, we could pray with them.

The message that night was a good one, it lasted about 90 minutes. At the end of the service, the evangelist asked for all heads to be bowed. He began appealing to the people with the usual unctions. He then asked for people to raise their hands if they knew they were lost. Of course, all heads were bowed and all eyes were closed, that is, except for the deacons. For about 5 minutes, no hands were raised, then the evangelist started to say, there is one over there, thank you friend. No hand was raised. This went on for about another minute. Eventually, somebody did raise their hand.

In this instance, I lost all respect for this minister. He had adopted the "by any means" method that Finney used.

In oder to bolster church membership, Finney introduced the "anxious bench" what we now call the "altar call." It is nothing more than a way to bolster membership and to put members "on the spot."

A person in church can be saved standing at their pew as good as they can at the altar.

Charles Finney started the "by hook or crook" methods used even today.

now I don't doubt that some individuals were geniunely saved under his ministry. And doubly, because of the tactics he employed, I don't doubt that some "converts" were not really saved.

You stand in a crowd, 9 of your personal friends and you. Those 9 go forward to make a confession, that puts a lot of pressure on you to do the same even if the Holy Spirit is not really working on you.

It is good that the man was an out-spoken proponent of abolition. And it is equally good that an uneducated man could rise to be the President of a College. Much in the same manner John L. Dagg did. But I wonder how many people were tainted with Charles Finney's theology while attending his college?

And the legacy of Charles Finney is still present today. I see it in churches all the time. I see it being expounded on here in the forums. And another legacy is that is a couple of people, college educated people here on the forums, who are under the illusion that Charles G. Finney not only was a "Calvinist," but was a "Calvinist" all his life.

He became a Calvinist in the early years after his conversion to the Christian faith at the age of 29. He remained a Calvinist for the rest of his life,

Just some food for thought.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: edie19
Upvote 0

mlqurgw

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2005
5,828
540
70
kain tuck ee
✟8,844.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
B. B. Warfield deals in detail with Finney and the Oberlin teachings in his book "Perfectionism." I have begun to re-read it since the thread in Baptists in which I asked PrincetonGuy if he was a follower of Finney. There is no doubt in my mind that though he denied it he does share much the same theology as Finney.
 
Upvote 0

bradfordl

Veteran
Mar 20, 2006
1,510
181
✟25,108.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
he may have been Presbyterian, but as I said before - can't find excitements in the doctrines of grace, he was not Calvinist/Reformed
He rejected Presbyterianism and the Westminster Standards not long into his 'ministry'. He called them blasphemous IIRC. He admitted that he'd vowed subscription to the standards that he hadn't read because he wanted a preaching license.
 
Upvote 0

edie19

Legend
Site Supporter
Sep 5, 2005
20,810
10,316
69
NW Ohio (almost Michigan)
Visit site
✟136,291.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
He rejected Presbyterianism and the Westminster Standards not long into his 'ministry'. He called them blasphemous IIRC. He admitted that he'd vowed subscription to the standards that he hadn't read because he wanted a preaching license.

and in that case, shame on the Presbyterian church for ordaining him without investigating his doctrinal beliefs more thoroughly
 
Upvote 0

bradfordl

Veteran
Mar 20, 2006
1,510
181
✟25,108.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
and in that case, shame on the Presbyterian church for ordaining him without investigating his doctrinal beliefs more thoroughly
Yeah, but then he did lie about what he subscribed to. Sad thing is that Presby churches have ordained far weirder folks than Finney - depends on the particular denom. But even in some of the more faithful denoms, men have lied when they professed subscription to the standards. I see it all the time in the PCA.
 
Upvote 0

edie19

Legend
Site Supporter
Sep 5, 2005
20,810
10,316
69
NW Ohio (almost Michigan)
Visit site
✟136,291.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status

how very sad - and as I read Scripture these men will be judged not only for themselves, but for the lives they're responsible for
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

Don't you mean the PCUSA?

This is the most liberal wing of the Presbyterian church.

In 1993, the PCA decided we needed to redefine what sin was in light of the homosexual controversy.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0