Catholicism and the "M" word

shinbits · Dec 14, 2010

I got this from another thread currently going on:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7520015/

From the OP, this was Posted:

Thomas Bokenkotter, a Catholic priest and historian, explains the traditional church opposition to masturbation this way:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Data from the sciences have also severely challenged the traditional condemnation of masturbation, which to some extent was based on outmoded views of human reproduction. At one time it was believed the male sperm was the only factor in human reproduction and the sperm was regarded as humans in miniature. Hence spilling it out was tantamount to abortion as well as a waste of a precious element. Other myths also played a role. Masturbation was blamed for a whole host of physical and spiritual ills such as acne, asthma, heart murmurs, lethargy and even insanity.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]From Thomas Bokenkotter, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Essential Catholicism[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica], Doubleday, 1985, p. 334.[/FONT]

Agree?

Michie · Dec 14, 2010

I doubt Jesus masturbated.

I also doubt the Church will be changing the teaching on this.

Masturbation also involves fantasies, etc.

As far as the myths... those existed well into the 1900's.

LondonAssyrian · Dec 14, 2010

I'm not as well read as the other Catholics on the board and I've never heard of Bokenkotter, but as a poster in the other thread highlighted, this is dated material which has possibly been deprived of it's context.

We know that sperm exist for the fertilisation of the female egg and we know that masturbation denies the role sperm play in the creation of life, which is why it is acknowledged as a sin. Add the sexual elements of lust and pornography often associated with masturbation, and we develop a clear picture of how, as Christians, such behaviour can not be encouraged under any circumstances. The social and mental effects masturbation can have are also indicative of the damaging influence it can have upon an individual.

Michie said:
I doubt Jesus masturbated.

I also doubt the Church will be changing the teaching on this.

Masturbation also involves fantasies, etc.

As far as the myths... those existed well into the 1900's.

I think we can be assured in that, and not just doubtful that Christ did not abuse His physical body like that.

Michie · Dec 14, 2010

LondonAssyrian said:
I'm not as well read as the other Catholics on the board and I've never heard of Bokenkotter, but as a poster in the other thread highlighted, this is dated material which has possibly been deprived of it's context.

We know that sperm exist for the fertilisation of the female egg and we know that masturbation denies the role sperm play in the creation of life, which is why it is acknowledged as a sin. Add the sexual elements of lust and pornography often associated with masturbation, and we develop a clear picture of how, as Christians, such behaviour can not be encouraged under any circumstances. The social and mental effects masturbation can have are also indicative of the damaging influence it can have upon an individual.

I think we can be assured in that, and not just doubtful that Christ did not abuse His physical body like that.

Society has now taken it to the opposite end of the spectrum. It is considered as harmful not to touch.

LondonAssyrian · Dec 14, 2010

Michie said:
Society has now taken it to the opposite end of the spectrum. It is considered as harmful not to touch.

I'm aware of studies that indicate the health benefits it can have, but as Christians of course such findings cannot dictate our actions if they contradict with the teachings of Christ and the Church.

Michie · Dec 14, 2010

LondonAssyrian said:
I'm aware of studies that indicate the health benefits it can have, but as Christians of course such findings cannot dictate our actions if they contradict with the teachings of Christ and the Church.

You are correct.

But this forum has been over & over the masturbation/anal sex, etc., topics over & over again. You would not believe the excuses people use to advocate for these things.

And they say the Church is obsessed over pelvic issues.

No, we are.

LondonAssyrian · Dec 14, 2010

Michie said:
You are correct.

But this forum has been over & over the masturbation/anal sex, etc., topics over & over again. You would not believe the excuses people use to advocate for these things.

And they say the Church is obsessed over pelvic issues.

No, we are.

The Church is only obsessed with adhering to Christ. In doing so, it is natural that the Church will attempt to distance itself from what goes against Christ. It is a shame that certain people regularly highlight what the Church condemns as opposed to what it advocates, namely the eternal love of Christ and the salvation it brings.

As individuals, you're right, we dwell on these matters far too easily, both physically and mentally. That is the nature of our fallen state, and I admit that at times it is a struggle. Only through reliance on Christ may we overcome these stumbling blocks.

ProScribe · Dec 14, 2010

What was considered to be essential facts can be obsolete in these times.

Michie · Dec 14, 2010

book by Thomas Bokenkotter

I have come across "Dynamic Catholocism," formerly known as "Essential Catholicism," by Fr. Thomas Bokenkotter. Is this a "safe book"? Correct teaching of Catholic doctrines and teeachings, no iffy theology or teachings, etc.? I am trying to learn more about my faith and do not want to be led astray; I don't know enough to discern any errors there might be.

Continued- http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=190195

Dylan Michael · Dec 14, 2010

Well, since I quit the M-sin, I've never felt more free.

WarriorAngel · Dec 14, 2010

Why its wrong:
1.It's pure lust
2.Your spouse is eliminated thus not ,loving to them
3.Spilling seed goes against procreation which is the purpose of seed.
4.Its self-ish

sylverpiano · Dec 14, 2010

Hi there!

Although, I am far from perfect, this is not one of my vices. Any sexual imagery brings back dark, frightening memories.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 14, 2010

That sin is slavery to the devil and lust. To say it is "natural" and "healthy" is to delude one's self into slavery to the Devil. One cannot commit "the M-sin" without thinking about another after which to lust; it is impossible.

Gwendolyn · Dec 14, 2010

There are a few reasons why masturbation is sinful.

Firstly, there is Scripture condemning lust and sexual immorality.

Secondly, the Catechism has this to say:

The Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."
(#2352)

**Note: 'intrinsically disordered' means that masturbation is always disordered under any circumstance. It is disordered in and of itself.

And according to Natural Law, which involves the application of our God-given ability to reason:

Why do we have sexual urges? To urge us toward sex.
Sex has two purposes: procreation and unity of spouses.
Masturbation is not procreative.
Masturbation is solitary and is therefore not unitive.
Masturbation involves the solitary stimulation of the genital organs for the purpose of sexual pleasure, which is contrary to the purpose of our sexual urges.
Masturbation is therefore contrary to Natural Law.

Masturbation isn't "natural". What is natural is to experience sexual urges, which find their end in sex. Sex belongs in the marital union.

Anyway, Bokenkotter is correct to note that masturbation is no longer condemned due to mistaken medical science. It isn't. It IS, however, condemned for the aforementions reasons - from Scripture, from the Catechism, and from simple observation of the Natural Law, which applies to all human beings universally, regardless of faith.

shinbits · Dec 14, 2010

What is the CC's position on masturbation within marriage...say a wife's husband is away serving in the military; if she fantasizes about her husband, is it okay?

Or what about as mere sexual play between a couple, like if the above woman wants to put on live show for husband?

Gwendolyn · Dec 14, 2010

shinbits said:
What is the CC's position on masturbation within marriage...say a wife's husband is away serving in the military; if she fantasizes about her husband, is it okay?

Or what about as mere sexual play between a couple, like if the above woman wants to put on live show for husband?

No. Masturbation is still against natural law, and is still solitary in those situations you cited. Yes, this is difficult for people to hear, because they want to be able to do whatever they want in the bedroom. But masturbation is contrary to the purpose of sexual urges. Even in the case of the military wife, she is no different than a single person in that she has no partner. It is still wrong.

MoNiCa4316 · Dec 14, 2010

WarriorAngel said:
Why its wrong:
1.It's pure lust
2.Your spouse is eliminated thus not ,loving to them
3.Spilling seed goes against procreation which is the purpose of seed.
4.Its self-ish

^ good summary.

Gwendolyn said:
There are a few reasons why masturbation is sinful.

Firstly, there is Scripture condemning lust and sexual immorality.

Secondly, the Catechism has this to say:

The Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."
(#2352)

**Note: 'intrinsically disordered' means that masturbation is always disordered under any circumstance. It is disordered in and of itself.

And according to Natural Law, which involves the application of our God-given ability to reason:

Why do we have sexual urges? To urge us toward sex.

Sex has two purposes: procreation and unity of spouses.

Masturbation is not procreative.

Masturbation is solitary and is therefore not unitive.

Masturbation involves the solitary stimulation of the genital organs for the purpose of sexual pleasure, which is contrary to the purpose of our sexual urges.

Masturbation is therefore contrary to Natural Law.

Masturbation isn't "natural". What is natural is to experience sexual urges, which find their end in sex. Sex belongs in the marital union.

Anyway, Bokenkotter is correct to note that masturbation is no longer condemned due to mistaken medical science. It isn't. It IS, however, condemned for the aforementions reasons - from Scripture, from the Catechism, and from simple observation of the Natural Law, which applies to all human beings universally, regardless of faith.

shinbits said:
What is the CC's position on masturbation within marriage...say a wife's husband is away serving in the military; if she fantasizes about her husband, is it okay?

Or what about as mere sexual play between a couple, like if the above woman wants to put on live show for husband?

it is always a sin

sex is meant for two married people, husband and wife. Anything different than this goes against the purpose of sex. (unitive and procreative)

QuantaCura · Dec 15, 2010

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith with the approval of Pope Paul VI in 1975 addressed the very issues brought up by the priest cited in the OP (which is potentially misleading at best):

The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today. It is said that psychology and sociology show that it is a normal phenomenon of sexual development, especially among the young. It is stated that there is real and serious fault only in the measure that the subject deliberately indulges in solitary pleasure closed in on self ("ipsation"), because in this case the act would indeed be radically opposed to the loving communion between persons of different sex which some hold is what is principally sought in the use of the sexual faculty.

This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes "the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love."[20] All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of "impurity," "unchasteness" and other vices contrary to chastity and continence.

Sociological surveys are able to show the frequency of this disorder according to the places, populations or circumstances studied. In this way facts are discovered, but facts do not constitute a criterion for judging the moral value of human acts.[21] The frequency of the phenomenon in question is certainly to be linked with man's innate weakness following original sin; but it is also to be linked with the loss of a sense of God, with the corruption of morals engendered by the commercialization of vice, with the unrestrained licentiousness of so many public entertainments and publications, as well as with the neglect of modesty, which is the guardian of chastity.

On the subject of masturbation modern psychology provides much valid and useful information for formulating a more equitable judgment on moral responsibility and for orienting pastoral action. Psychology helps one to see how the immaturity of adolescence (which can sometimes persist after that age), psychological imbalance or habit can influence behavior, diminishing the deliberate character of the act and bringing about a situation whereby subjectively there may not always be serious fault. But in general, the absence of serious responsibility must not be presumed; this would be to misunderstand people's moral capacity.

In the pastoral ministry, in order to form an adequate judgment in concrete cases, the habitual behavior of people will be considered in its totality, not only with regard to the individual's practice of charity and of justice but also with regard to the individual's care in observing the particular precepts of chastity. In particular, one will have to examine whether the individual is using the necessary means, both natural and supernatural, which Christian asceticism from its long experience recommends for overcoming the passions and progressing in virtue.

Persona Humana - Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics

JimR-OCDS · Dec 15, 2010

shinbits said:
I got this from another thread currently going on:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7520015/

From the OP, this was Posted:

Thomas Bokenkotter, a Catholic priest and historian, explains the traditional church opposition to masturbation this way:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Data from the sciences have also severely challenged the traditional condemnation of masturbation, which to some extent was based on outmoded views of human reproduction. At one time it was believed the male sperm was the only factor in human reproduction and the sperm was regarded as humans in miniature. Hence spilling it out was tantamount to abortion as well as a waste of a precious element. Other myths also played a role. Masturbation was blamed for a whole host of physical and spiritual ills such as acne, asthma, heart murmurs, lethargy and even insanity.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]From Thomas Bokenkotter, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Essential Catholicism[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica], Doubleday, 1985, p. 334.[/FONT]

Agree?

He left out, it can make you go blind.

Jim

MoonlessNight · Dec 15, 2010

Basically the Catholic position on sex is that the act of sexual intercourse has both a unitive and genarative purpose, both of which are essential to the act. That is to say it should both be an act of intimacy between a married couple and be open to the potential of creating a new lie. Masturbation in fact serves neither of these purposes, so it is out.

It's one of the only consistent ways of looking sex out there. Most viewpoints of sex turn out to be "do whatever you want, except don't do what offends me for reasons that I can't explain!" But in the Catholic viewpoint you just have to ask, is this an act of unity in a marriage? Is it an act of procreation? If yes then go ahead. If no then don't do it.

Catholicism and the "M" word

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