Can you be truly saved and also abusive

Hannah66 said:

My older sister loves the Lord and has been a christian for a long time.

However, she is abusive to me and has been like this since I was a child

It's like a cycle of violence(not physical violence) but she will treat me very poorly,
bully me, put me down, raise her voice at me. It may come with an apology if she sees
it upsets me
and then she will shower me with gifts or send cards and notes to encourage me as a christian.

I am confused.

When I have tried to approach her about it, she says, 'that I frustrate her"
that I make a lot of mistakes(May not always listen to what she says) or not comprehend
what she is saying.

She came to stay with me(we live 10 hours away from each other).

She stayed a short while back in February.
She got frustrated with the way I placed my cups in my cupboard
or the way I had my mat displayed in my bathroom, and then got very upset with me
about a meal we were having.
I dropped sauce on myself, while I was eating and she got frustrated with me

When I was washing the dishes, I missed a spot on the spoon and she threw it back in the water.
She criticised me for so many things and I told her I had to get out of the house eand go for a walk.
It was nighttime.
She knew how dangerous it would be for me to walk out, but she didn't stop me.

She didn't apologise when she got back.

When I have addresssed the issue, she 'gaslight's me " and has said there is something wrong with me.



I love my sister so very much and time and time again I forgive her for her behaviour.

She is married to a controlling man who doesn't like me so I don't think this helps

I am praying about it and find I have to put up boundaries with her and not share about my life.

Any other suggestions?

I am confused; she loves the Lord but doesn't see a problem with her behaviour.
Thank you

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Yes, a person can be abusive and be a Christian. We all are faulty, and even sinful, in ways we aren't even aware of, and in ways we are aware of, yet to which we keep returning, like a dog to its vomit. In the end, we all answer to God, and not to each other. This is a separate issue from Salvation, though a Believer must judge himself as to whether or not he loves the Lord (which means he is obedient, too). But in the end, God is the judge of a person's heart and acts.

My suggestion is only commit to her what you think you can handle. Lay it out to her, if you have the opportunity to do so without too much of an explosion, and explain why you must keep your distance, if you should choose to do so.

But my advice is to remember that this life is not for this life. And you belong to the Lord. She is as she is, and she is your sister, by the Lord's design. He takes you, and her, and all of us, through what he does for his own sake, to turn us into that for which he made each one. None of them the same, and all of the believers for their particular place in heaven, each an individual particular member, all the one Body of Christ.

Hannah66 said:

However, she is abusive to me and has been like this since I was a child

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Don't put up with it. Do not let her get away with it. There is plenty of information on the internet on how to deal with abusive people.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

So, don't *you* complain, but depend on the LORD to do what is right with you. And be an example of this to her so she has no excuse . . . if and when you choose to do things with her.

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

You be God's example to her of this so she can find out how to love. And have hope for her > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

Pray for her; God uses prayer and example.

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15)

You answer to Jesus first. Be how He wants you to be with Him. And He will creatively guide you. He will encourage us to do what He wants.

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19-20)

I am very displeased to read that a person can treat you like this and claim to be a Christian. And I have given you scriptures to show why. But Jesus expects me to love her and have hope for her.

I have had people like her, and I did not accept their cruel and stupid and evil ways of treating me. Yes, I would turn the other cheek, and I would refuse to let them have power over me to hurt me and control me and make me angry.

And I would evaluate anything they said to criticize me, in case I needed for God to have me do better somehow.

And what has helped me a lot is how God has me experience how His love is perfectly pure, sweet gentle kind gentle pleasant and resting me in my emotions and how I relate with people and react with peace . . . or pray until God has me functioning in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is basic Christianity. So, do not excuse less. Because this is possible with God. God does this with us.

It has helped that with mean and impossible people I stay kind and in an attitude of encouraging them to find out how to love, and trust God to spread this to them.

And I have had really Christian people who have been my example of this. And I have said this to people who are cruel and abusive while claiming to be Jesus people. I would point out how some person is my role model of how to be and love.

So . . . if you choose to associate with her > you will answer to God, yourself. Love the way Jesus says to love. Get your own correction with God. And be her example to help her. And make sure you do not get isolated with her.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, you don't have to control her or make her listen to you. But do not let her have power over you in an evil way.

You can read how Mary with Jesus handled a problem sister > Luke 10:38-42.

com7fy8 said:

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

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We have to be very careful with this. Some people think they are praying when they are really complaining. Perhaps we are all guilty of this to some degree. In the Bible we hear about how the earth swallowed the people. Even we see this on the 6 o'clock news. People will be clawing at the ground trying to dig out their loved ones. Somes times people are rescued, some are not.

Numbers 16:32-35, we find the account of Korah’s Rebellion. Korah, a Levite, along with some other individuals, challenged the authority of Moses and Aaron. Their rebellion led to a dramatic and supernatural consequence:

1. The Earth’s Mouth Opens:
   • As a sign of divine judgment, the earth opened its mouth and swallowed Korah, his followers, and their households.
   • The ground literally split apart, creating a chasm that engulfed them.
   • This event serves as a powerful reminder of God’s sovereignty and the consequences of rebellion.

com7fy8 said:

I would refuse to let them have power over me to hurt me and control me and make me angry.

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I just do not say a word. I let them go on and on. Eventually they start to listen to themselves and realize what they are doing. I know a girl who loves to talk into the phone. I usually do not read the text when she does that. Once I went to show her what she said and she got mad at me for reading her text back to her.

Psalm 39:1
I said, "I will watch my ways so that I will not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth with a muzzle as long as the wicked are present."

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is unavoidable, but he who restrains his lips is wise.

Proverbs 13:3
He who guards his mouth protects his life, but the one who opens his lips invites his own ruin.

Hannah66 said:

My older sister loves the Lord and has been a christian for a long time.

However, she is abusive to me and has been like this since I was a child

It's like a cycle of violence(not physical violence) but she will treat me very poorly,
bully me, put me down, raise her voice at me. It may come with an apology if she sees
it upsets me
and then she will shower me with gifts or send cards and notes to encourage me as a christian.

I am confused.

When I have tried to approach her about it, she says, 'that I frustrate her"
that I make a lot of mistakes(May not always listen to what she says) or not comprehend
what she is saying.

She came to stay with me(we live 10 hours away from each other).

She stayed a short while back in February.
She got frustrated with the way I placed my cups in my cupboard
or the way I had my mat displayed in my bathroom, and then got very upset with me
about a meal we were having.
I dropped sauce on myself, while I was eating and she got frustrated with me

When I was washing the dishes, I missed a spot on the spoon and she threw it back in the water.
She criticised me for so many things and I told her I had to get out of the house eand go for a walk.
It was nighttime.
She knew how dangerous it would be for me to walk out, but she didn't stop me.

She didn't apologise when she got back.

When I have addresssed the issue, she 'gaslight's me " and has said there is something wrong with me.



I love my sister so very much and time and time again I forgive her for her behaviour.

She is married to a controlling man who doesn't like me so I don't think this helps

I am praying about it and find I have to put up boundaries with her and not share about my life.

Any other suggestions?

I am confused; she loves the Lord but doesn't see a problem with her behaviour.
Thank you

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I'm so sorry to hear this hugs
I grew up with a Narcissist family, as a black sheep always criticism and bullying, and from my brother. Does it ring a bell sister.
This is typical narcissistic behaviour.
While of course we don't have a diagnosis, I recognise the signs. There are many of them out there. Even in the churches, because it's easy to hide. What you have described is classic narcissistic behaviour, triangulation of you as the scapegoat. I'm sorry. You don't deserve it. You have to protect yourself. Or your mental health and in the long term physical health will suffer. You might want to see someone that knows about narcissist.
It's not an excuse to use the bible like that to hang over your head. God doesn't want you to be treated this way.
You have to protect yourself.
Unfortunately a Narcissist doesn't change.
I recommend Dr Les Carter on YouTube, and Dr Ramani. As well as Rebecca Mandeville.
They are all Dr in this. And Dr Ramani has research.
You most likely will recognise.
There's not much to do other than realise they don't change, they're faulty, and protect yourself.

Diamond7 said:

I just do not say a word. I let them go on and on. Eventually they start to listen to themselves and realize what they are doing.

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This is not the same as giving someone the "silent treatment". And they can see you aren't trying to get rid of them.

What is good is >

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19-20).

Diamond7 said:

I know a girl who loves to talk into the phone. I usually do not read the text when she does that. Once I went to show her what she said and she got mad at me for reading her text back to her.

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lololololololol

Of course, it's not funny that she is like that.

At my church, I wrote down what our three preachers say, then I have given quotes back to them, at times. The youngest seems surprised. I don't know how he takes it, maybe because some church people are suspicious that ones are spying on them. What they might not know is how my notes leave out their political statements and at times I skip what they say and write in what I find that God has given me.

But I find they are all-right pastoral preachers, caring and diligent in the word . . . and "works in progress".

Diamond7 said:

Psalm 39:1
I said, "I will watch my ways so that I will not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth with a muzzle as long as the wicked are present."

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is unavoidable, but he who restrains his lips is wise.

Proverbs 13:3
He who guards his mouth protects his life, but the one who opens his lips invites his own ruin.

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"He who answers a matter before he hears it,
It is folly and shame to him."
(Proverbs 18:13)

Excessive criticism is common with OCPD. People with OCPD have immense frustration with the perceived flaws of others. They also believe there is a right way to do everything, like how to place cups in a cupboard, and get angry when it's not done "the right way".

It sounds like she redirects blame to you which is another OCPD trait. They cannot accept blame so they will usually find a way to blame someone else, even when it's objectively their fault and is clear to anyone there. However, they can be convincing, so people who don't know the whole situation may end up believing them.

In many cases, OCPD is influenced by overly strict or perfectionist parenting, which caused the person to develop rigid and perfectionistic traits. The person may have been blamed a lot growing up and as a defense mechanism they've learned to always blame others no matter how small the matter. They will even blame others when it's clear that no consequences will occur from the blame. Blame for them is more like a trigger, an opening of a wound that causes their deep insecurity, than about the specific incident itself.

It's also very narcissistic. As well the refusal to take into account how it affects others. Remember just because you have a problem, doesn't mean it gives you free pass to be abusive to others or treat them badly

com7fy8 said:

This is not the same as giving someone the "silent treatment". And they can see you aren't trying to get rid of them.

What is good is >

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19-20).


lololololololol

Of course, it's not funny that she is like that.

At my church, I wrote down what our three preachers say, then I have given quotes back to them, at times. The youngest seems surprised. I don't know how he takes it, maybe because some church people are suspicious that ones are spying on them. What they might not know is how my notes leave out their political statements and at times I skip what they say and write in what I find that God has given me.

But I find they are all-right pastoral preachers, caring and diligent in the word . . . and "works in progress".


"He who answers a matter before he hears it,
It is folly and shame to him."
(Proverbs 18:13)

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Are you listening? These behaviours will destroy a person's mental health and physical wellbeing

Hannah66 said:

My older sister loves the Lord and has been a christian for a long time.

However, she is abusive to me and has been like this since I was a child

It's like a cycle of violence(not physical violence) but she will treat me very poorly,
bully me, put me down, raise her voice at me. It may come with an apology if she sees
it upsets me
and then she will shower me with gifts or send cards and notes to encourage me as a christian.

I am confused.

When I have tried to approach her about it, she says, 'that I frustrate her"
that I make a lot of mistakes(May not always listen to what she says) or not comprehend
what she is saying.

She came to stay with me(we live 10 hours away from each other).

She stayed a short while back in February.
She got frustrated with the way I placed my cups in my cupboard
or the way I had my mat displayed in my bathroom, and then got very upset with me
about a meal we were having.
I dropped sauce on myself, while I was eating and she got frustrated with me

When I was washing the dishes, I missed a spot on the spoon and she threw it back in the water.
She criticised me for so many things and I told her I had to get out of the house eand go for a walk.
It was nighttime.
She knew how dangerous it would be for me to walk out, but she didn't stop me.

She didn't apologise when she got back.

When I have addresssed the issue, she 'gaslight's me " and has said there is something wrong with me.



I love my sister so very much and time and time again I forgive her for her behaviour.

She is married to a controlling man who doesn't like me so I don't think this helps

I am praying about it and find I have to put up boundaries with her and not share about my life.

Any other suggestions?

I am confused; she loves the Lord but doesn't see a problem with her behaviour.
Thank you

Click to expand...

You don’t deserve this. I think you need to tell her that you won’t put up with it anymore and tell her to change her ways. If she doesn’t, perhaps you should not see her for a while. Perhaps this is what she needs so she can reflect on how badly she’s treated you and realise how much she values having you around.

Sunflower39 said:

You don’t deserve this. I think you need to tell her that you won’t put up with it anymore and tell her to change her ways. If she doesn’t, perhaps you should not see her for a while. Perhaps this is what she needs so she can reflect on how badly she’s treated you and realise how much she values having you around.

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To refuse to change her ways.. I don't see any repentance there.

Godcrazy said:

To refuse to change her ways.. I don't see any repentance there.

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Yes, she needs to repent too but that’s between her and God.

Hannah66 said:

I am confused.

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The abuse cycle is a crucial concept in understanding patterns of abusive behavior. It typically consists of several phases:

1. Tension-Building Phase: During this phase, tension and stress increase in the relationship. Communication may become strained, and minor conflicts escalate. The victim often tries to placate the abuser to prevent further escalation.
2. Explosion (Acute) Phase: In this phase, the tension reaches a breaking point, leading to an explosive incident. This can involve physical, emotional, or verbal abuse. The victim feels overwhelmed and powerless.
3. Honeymoon (Reconciliation) Phase: After the explosion, the abuser may express remorse, apologize, and promise change. The victim may hope things will improve and may forgive the abuser. However, this phase is temporary.
4. Calm (Loving) Phase: During this phase, things seem peaceful, and the relationship appears to be improving. The abuser may be affectionate and attentive. However, this calm is often short-lived.
5. Repeat: The cycle repeats, with the tension building again, leading to another explosion and subsequent reconciliation.

It’s essential to recognize this pattern and seek help if you’re experiencing abuse or witnessing it in someone else. Support networks, counseling, and legal resources are available to break the cycle and promote safety and healing.

I agree with angelsaroundme that your situation very much does seem like you are dealing with OCPD. But who can know from just reading online messages? If it is not, then you are dealing with something very similar.

I think the best expert on OCPD is Mack W. Ethridge, and it just so happens he was a Christian and wrote a supplemental book on OCPD, on how a cure can be found over time by relying on biblical principles -- When OCPD Meets the Power of God. I am no expert in psychology, but I have read about 30 books on the subject, and this book is by far the best. It is amazing how he combines psychology with the Bible, and I think all psychology experts who are Christian should read this book, no matter what kind of disorder they may be dealing with. For some reason, his books are expensive (not too Christian, I think, but he probably had his reasons), but this referenced book was well worth what I paid.

Basically, he says healing can come by acquiring insights from God on how to deal with it, in addition to a clinical understanding of the dynamics, and he reviews how that process works. He first became interested in OCPD when he had to live with a relative with the condition and wanted to figure out how to deal with her. Remember all OCPD cases are individualistic, and there are at least four sub-categories of the disorder.

I am dealing with a person with OCPD, an extreme case, and her history of dealing with past abuse is just very horrific. But I just have so much compassion for her. I learned about her true character very slowly, and that process goes on. I am amazed by it, just as I was with her story of abuse, something not found in America. But I believe I am called by God to help her, and the difficulties involved do not phase me.

I do not judge this woman at all. I just want to help her. I wish I could find someone to share my experiences with and to discuss the process of relying on God and receiving from God insights about how to deal with the OCPDer. But that seems impossible. But I think it surely would help and I hope someday it happens. My case is even more complicated, as I am also dealing with a Chinese culture, and not many Americans know about that.

My advice to you is, take your time and learn just how deep the damage may be.

Godcrazy said:

always criticism and bullying, and from my brother

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I reacted to my brothers behaviour toward me by getting angry. Then one day I talked to him and said you are doing this so my response is that. He did not realize he was doing what he was doing and he stopped doing it when I had a civil discussion about it.

I remember having a discussion 30 years later with my sister about a time when I was 3 years old and she got mad because my mom gave me her crayons to play with while she was in school. It was no issue for my mom. Next time she was at the store she bought new crayons so we did not have to share her crayons.

People need to talk and work things out instead of accusing each other.